Meteoric Patrem-Made In England...

Richard Furrer · 25th September 2007, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Richard, I attempted to access your pics, but cannot get to them. Some sort of "not a member" thing.

By what you have written it looks as if you smelted the meteoritic material.

.

Yes indeed I did melt it...its my "thing".
I used Nantan meteorite from China and it has 6-7% nickel...the color tone from 7% is not too different from 2% so I diluted it to 2% with iron and added enough carbon to bring it to about 0.6%...thus making an ingot of good steel.

Sorry about not being able to access Don Fogg's discussion site...I need to place all that on my website...its on the list of things to do.

I never found the folding in the raw meteorite all that efficient...with some space rocks its not possible as they are too full of crud to work in that fassion....BUT...that is more traditional.

Ric

lemmythesmith · 26th September 2007, 09:53 PM

Hi Penangsang, I'm afraid not!!

Seriously though, you do have to have a certain mental preparation to make blades otherwise mistakes and disasters ensue! (and some real good burns)

Hi Alan, when you say you wash the iron until there are no sparks do you mean as in grinding the metal or does it get to full welding heat without any of the usual "lazy" sparks that come from wrought at that temperature? Sounds like a good indicator to know, I've usually washed iron so that when it's cut with the hot chisel it will fold back on itself without breaking, I'm always interested to learn new techniques!

A. G. Maisey · 26th September 2007, 10:55 PM

Lemmy, the cut and fold test is something that will work with hotshort material, but just because you can do this, it doesn't necessarily mean that the material is clean.When you take dirty material up towards weld heat it throws off lots of little sparks when you whack it, when it is clean these little sparks drop to an absolute minimum , or even none at all, what you have is a nice dense billet of material that is easy to work, and that you can do anything with. Similarly, in the fire the material tends not to throw off much in the way of sparks when it gets to weld heat, so if you're using coke or charcoal, you need to find another way to give you an indication of when its ready to take the weld. I normally use a 4lb. hammer to take a weld, and when the material is stuck, I give it another heat, put the billet under a hold-down tool, and use a ten or twelve pound hammer to consolidate the weld and draw it out; when material is dirty, that initial bringing together of the material throws out a lot of sparks from dirty material, when the material is clean, you might get just a few little stars.You can actually feel the difference under the hammer:- the clean material is sort of like hitting velvet. I'm talking about forge processes here, nothing at all to do with grinding. Folding back on itself, I do not use the hot chisel to allow the fold to be made, this is too slow, I use the edge of the anvil to put a crease in the material, then bend the bar down over the offside of the anvil, this gives you a right angle, which you can close down to the other arm on top of the anvil. Before you close the fold its probably best to get rid of as much scale as you can.Of course, if you're using a gas forge it becomes much, much easier. Anybody can weld almost anything with gas, its just like making cakes.

Richard Furrer · 28th September 2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Of course, if you're using a gas forge it becomes much, much easier. Anybody can weld almost anything with gas, its just like making cakes.

I've seen a lot of bad cakes made by poor bakers with good ovens Alan.

Certain tools make the work possible alone...even profitable....rarely easy.

Still..I wish I had a few strikers at times...some Pamor I have seen are complex and difficlut to replicate.

Ric

A. G. Maisey · 28th September 2007, 10:13 PM

Yeah, strikers can be a Godsend. It gets terribly hard sometimes to handle big material with a hold down tool. Those little mechanical hammers---what do they call them?---an oliver?---can be good too.Of course, the best would be a nice big power hammer, but I doubt it would ever be possible to get your money back on the investment.You'd probably need to stick it in the middle of a five acre paddock too, if you didn't want neighbour problems.

Of course you're right about bad cakes, but gas compared to charcoal or coke---well, its really a walk up start. Compared to coal, where you need to coke the coal before you can weld, there simply is no comparison.Two totally different worlds. I've taught a number of people how to forge weld, and what I've found is this:- with good clean coke, a committed learner, starting from a low knowledge base, will pick it up in about 6 to 8 full working days.With gas, again starting from a low knowledge base, a couple of three or four hour sessions is enough to have a committed learner doing good tight welds.In fact, even my wife can weld in a gas forge. Further, it is possible for a relative new-comer to achieve complex welds in gas that in the heyday of blacksmiths would only have been able to be achieved by extremely talented masters.Gas is cheap, clean, effective and very easy, when compared to any other fuel.

Michel · 30th September 2007, 04:11 PM

Hi Alan,
You have sent a few very very interesting messages lately concerning forging.
They have taught us a lot. Lemmythesmith may not have learned as much as my son and myself but I can tell you we did read and reread your messages, as you tell an awful lot in each.
Now forging with gas is something that we have never really considered but reading you it is worth a close look at it. Among the advantages that I could hope for, isn't the fact that one can see much better the heated piece ?
With charcoal it is always a problem as many pieces of charcoal are closing a precise view of the piece to be welded.
If you have clean material, with practically no sparks at welding temperature, it is almost a "must" to have a good view of the piece to weld to judge the temperature by its color. Any other signs for judging the welding temp ?
How do you do it with gas forging ?
Thanks for all these informations
Regards
Michel

lemmythesmith · 30th September 2007, 04:52 PM

Hi Michel, first, the final weight of the patrem blade is about 87 grammes.. Second, judging welding heat without the sparks can be done by looking at the surface of the iron whilst it's in the fire-the surface will look like butter on a hot day, slightly molten. (the surface looks wet) Never used a gas forge so I can't comment-I've always used coke or charcoal.

As for using a striker, I wish I still had this.......

I have a PDF which has full drawings for building a similar tool, I'm currently constructing one half size, the page seems to be down at the moment so if you want the plans let me know and I'll email them to you.

Regards, Graham.

30th September 2007, 04:11 PM	#6
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Forging with gas Hi Alan, You have sent a few very very interesting messages lately concerning forging. They have taught us a lot. Lemmythesmith may not have learned as much as my son and myself but I can tell you we did read and reread your messages, as you tell an awful lot in each. Now forging with gas is something that we have never really considered but reading you it is worth a close look at it. Among the advantages that I could hope for, isn't the fact that one can see much better the heated piece ? With charcoal it is always a problem as many pieces of charcoal are closing a precise view of the piece to be welded. If you have clean material, with practically no sparks at welding temperature, it is almost a "must" to have a good view of the piece to weld to judge the temperature by its color. Any other signs for judging the welding temp ? How do you do it with gas forging ? Thanks for all these informations Regards Michel

30th September 2007, 04:52 PM	#7
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Michel, first, the final weight of the patrem blade is about 87 grammes.. Second, judging welding heat without the sparks can be done by looking at the surface of the iron whilst it's in the fire-the surface will look like butter on a hot day, slightly molten. (the surface looks wet) Never used a gas forge so I can't comment-I've always used coke or charcoal. As for using a striker, I wish I still had this....... I have a PDF which has full drawings for building a similar tool, I'm currently constructing one half size, the page seems to be down at the moment so if you want the plans let me know and I'll email them to you. Regards, Graham. Attached Images

26th September 2007, 09:53 PM	#2
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Penangsang, I'm afraid not!! Seriously though, you do have to have a certain mental preparation to make blades otherwise mistakes and disasters ensue! (and some real good burns) Hi Alan, when you say you wash the iron until there are no sparks do you mean as in grinding the metal or does it get to full welding heat without any of the usual "lazy" sparks that come from wrought at that temperature? Sounds like a good indicator to know, I've usually washed iron so that when it's cut with the hot chisel it will fold back on itself without breaking, I'm always interested to learn new techniques!

26th September 2007, 10:55 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Lemmy, the cut and fold test is something that will work with hotshort material, but just because you can do this, it doesn't necessarily mean that the material is clean.When you take dirty material up towards weld heat it throws off lots of little sparks when you whack it, when it is clean these little sparks drop to an absolute minimum , or even none at all, what you have is a nice dense billet of material that is easy to work, and that you can do anything with. Similarly, in the fire the material tends not to throw off much in the way of sparks when it gets to weld heat, so if you're using coke or charcoal, you need to find another way to give you an indication of when its ready to take the weld. I normally use a 4lb. hammer to take a weld, and when the material is stuck, I give it another heat, put the billet under a hold-down tool, and use a ten or twelve pound hammer to consolidate the weld and draw it out; when material is dirty, that initial bringing together of the material throws out a lot of sparks from dirty material, when the material is clean, you might get just a few little stars.You can actually feel the difference under the hammer:- the clean material is sort of like hitting velvet. I'm talking about forge processes here, nothing at all to do with grinding. Folding back on itself, I do not use the hot chisel to allow the fold to be made, this is too slow, I use the edge of the anvil to put a crease in the material, then bend the bar down over the offside of the anvil, this gives you a right angle, which you can close down to the other arm on top of the anvil. Before you close the fold its probably best to get rid of as much scale as you can.Of course, if you're using a gas forge it becomes much, much easier. Anybody can weld almost anything with gas, its just like making cakes.

28th September 2007, 10:13 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yeah, strikers can be a Godsend. It gets terribly hard sometimes to handle big material with a hold down tool. Those little mechanical hammers---what do they call them?---an oliver?---can be good too.Of course, the best would be a nice big power hammer, but I doubt it would ever be possible to get your money back on the investment.You'd probably need to stick it in the middle of a five acre paddock too, if you didn't want neighbour problems. Of course you're right about bad cakes, but gas compared to charcoal or coke---well, its really a walk up start. Compared to coal, where you need to coke the coal before you can weld, there simply is no comparison.Two totally different worlds. I've taught a number of people how to forge weld, and what I've found is this:- with good clean coke, a committed learner, starting from a low knowledge base, will pick it up in about 6 to 8 full working days.With gas, again starting from a low knowledge base, a couple of three or four hour sessions is enough to have a committed learner doing good tight welds.In fact, even my wife can weld in a gas forge. Further, it is possible for a relative new-comer to achieve complex welds in gas that in the heyday of blacksmiths would only have been able to be achieved by extremely talented masters.Gas is cheap, clean, effective and very easy, when compared to any other fuel.