Tulwar for coments, please

fernando · 22nd September 2007, 10:49 PM

Thank you so much for your enlightenment, Jim
I must say i have not yet bought this piece; i still try and convince the seller to drop the price down.
However your input gave some enthusiasm towards acquiring this piece.
Meantime i will try and fit into your various remarks on this piece and in general.
Its weight is 1,113 kg. ( almost 2 1/2 pounds ) which is a considerable weight for a sword with the mentioned length.
I know about the opinnion that the knuckle guard could be of European influence, but i find it surprising that Daehnhardt doesn't mention this particularity on the lately discussed book, his main work on the Discoveries period weaponry that the Portuguese faced in Asia, while he is so keen at detailing this kind of things.
It is also a fact that the two thousand years old kanda, has a hanguard ... if this means something for the matter.
I am also thinking that the use of the shield to block the opponent's expectable blow, doens't avoid the eventual entangling of blades, in close moves, with consequent fingers risk.
It's a pitty Homens Espadas e Tomates is not bilingual, like some of this author other works.
I can tell you that the text under picture 51 ( page 109) quotes that such XVI-XVII specimen has its quillons completely turned down in order to better defend the opponents sword slide , while exposing the hand to incoming blows from the side . Already in picture 100 ( page 190) he mentions the existing knuckle guard in a XVII-XVIII century specimen, with the traditional shape of a raising snake, but he doesn't refer any exterior influence for its appearance.
Further he aproaches the traditional Indian fighting system with the sword in one hand and the shield in the other, while the Portuguese, as from the second half XVI century, used the rapier in one hand and the left hand dagger in the other, having preferred this to the previous shield, this system however demanging for fencing training. The resource of the hand dagger was naturally applied at close quarters, but in any case the abandon of the shield made them vulnerable to the enemies arrows, a rather frequent problem.
According to the discussed author, he writes in page 179 that some Indian fencing schools tryed to introduce some European innovations in their swords, like a protecting ring in front of the guard for the index finger. However, with the exception of a few Hugarian examples and one or another experimental specimen, they never managed to alter the style of their sabre or its aplication forms. Nevertheless all of their armies had great experts in the use the said saber, causing lots of casualties in the Portuguese files. But in generical terms, the use of the Muslim sabre with shield was inferior to the Portuguese combination of sword and left hand dagger. This last part could be his patriotic way of view, i am just quoting him.
Concerning your observation on the tulwar frequent offset of he langets, in my humble opinnion i would go for the version of the mount or remount. Maybe this could easier happen with the specimens without rivet fixation, for lack of consequent adjustment rigour. I keep seeing tulwars without rivets, namely the ancient ones, and in my fantasy the rivet addition came at a later stage ... but that could be because i haven't yet seen enough examples to be certain that these were concurrent versions. Mind you, the example i am showing here was surely remounted, as it had a new langet welded ... visibly not the the same piece put back, maybe because it was lost in battle ( to make it romantic ).
Sorry for my impertinence Jim, as if i knew what i am talking about. I expect your usual tolerance.
Kind regards
fernando

ward · 22nd September 2007, 11:31 PM

This is a pretty generic example. If I may suggest there are much better examples in better condition out there. I beleive your money would be well spent on upgrading. Quality over quantity. No offence meant just a humble suggestion.

fernando · 22nd September 2007, 11:39 PM

Hi Ward
I sincerly thank you for the advice.
Kindest regards
fernando

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2007, 12:26 AM

Thank you so much for your excellent response in kind!!! I really appreciate you going into detail with your very well placed observations, and think you are pretty much on target mostly. I am not too sure about the khanda though, I think the early examples seen iconographically are open hilt, but I do agree the knuckleguard seems likely pre European contact or outside that particular influence. The said influence may have reinforced the use of this element already in place, but more specific research needed.

Very good points on the Portuguese fencing styles in comparison to that of Indian, and the point that even with shields used to receive blows, the dynamics of close combat would invariably result in blade to blade contact. In that case, one certainly would need some protection.

Possibly the open hilt talwars were intended for court wear? But then even these occur in munitions grade, fighting use weapons.

I think what you say on the angle of the langet, and of course it might have been rewelded as you suggest, these weapons were often 'in the shop' during thier working life!

Ward, I agree with your note that this is a 'generic' example, but what I had noted was that was the beauty of it, its a good example of a sword not suggesting having been 'worked over'. I believe it would be good to use disgression on the price. I actually learned to favor these weathered and worn examples for thier integrity, but I admit a lot of it was my budget too!

To me having a sound representative example that would not have been worthy of tampering was what I needed for study. These I viewed as solid pieces of history.

All best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd September 2007, 09:41 PM

Hi Fernando,

A very good choice, starting to collect Indian

.

When you regard an Indian sword, you should not compare it to European swords, although there was an influence, but this came from many other countries as well. You should look at it as an Indian sword, and try to compare it to other Indian swords, more than to European swords.

It is, no doubt, a fighting sword, and the repair, which on the picture, seems to be old, would not bother me. It is interesting to see the fuller placed low on the blade, which is unusual.

fernando · 23rd September 2007, 10:45 PM

Hi Jens,
Thank you so much for your observations,which i will duly note.
fernando

fernando · 23rd September 2007, 10:54 PM

Hi Jim

Thanks a lot for your kind words

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I really appreciate you going into detail with your very well placed observations, and think you are pretty much on target mostly.Jim

No need to exagerate, though

Any grade above the bottom of ignorance, is already an enthusiasting prize for me

ariel · 24th September 2007, 01:45 AM

Just a quick note: the ring on Polish-Hungarian sabers was not for the index finger, but for the thumb. It greatly improved blade control while the thumb was protected. This innovation was later adopted by other European militaries.
Hooking the index finger into some retro-handguard loop would conceivably ease the thrusting control, but the sabers were for slashing.

fernando · 25th September 2007, 10:28 PM

Hi Ariel
Quite understood.
However i don't think this author would confuse saber inner guard thumb (polegar) ring, with index (indicador) finger protection ring in front of guard. Also he puts a few "Hungarian examples" in paralel with "one or another (Indian) experiment", as a failled intention to alter the ( Indian) saber style or/and its aplication form. There is no doubt of what he talks about; whether these things existed, it's another story

. As we say over here, i am selling it for the price i bought it

.
fernando

22nd September 2007, 10:49 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you so much for your enlightenment, Jim I must say i have not yet bought this piece; i still try and convince the seller to drop the price down. However your input gave some enthusiasm towards acquiring this piece. Meantime i will try and fit into your various remarks on this piece and in general. Its weight is 1,113 kg. ( almost 2 1/2 pounds ) which is a considerable weight for a sword with the mentioned length. I know about the opinnion that the knuckle guard could be of European influence, but i find it surprising that Daehnhardt doesn't mention this particularity on the lately discussed book, his main work on the Discoveries period weaponry that the Portuguese faced in Asia, while he is so keen at detailing this kind of things. It is also a fact that the two thousand years old kanda, has a hanguard ... if this means something for the matter. I am also thinking that the use of the shield to block the opponent's expectable blow, doens't avoid the eventual entangling of blades, in close moves, with consequent fingers risk. It's a pitty Homens Espadas e Tomates is not bilingual, like some of this author other works. I can tell you that the text under picture 51 ( page 109) quotes that such XVI-XVII specimen has its quillons completely turned down in order to better defend the opponents sword slide , while exposing the hand to incoming blows from the side . Already in picture 100 ( page 190) he mentions the existing knuckle guard in a XVII-XVIII century specimen, with the traditional shape of a raising snake, but he doesn't refer any exterior influence for its appearance. Further he aproaches the traditional Indian fighting system with the sword in one hand and the shield in the other, while the Portuguese, as from the second half XVI century, used the rapier in one hand and the left hand dagger in the other, having preferred this to the previous shield, this system however demanging for fencing training. The resource of the hand dagger was naturally applied at close quarters, but in any case the abandon of the shield made them vulnerable to the enemies arrows, a rather frequent problem. According to the discussed author, he writes in page 179 that some Indian fencing schools tryed to introduce some European innovations in their swords, like a protecting ring in front of the guard for the index finger. However, with the exception of a few Hugarian examples and one or another experimental specimen, they never managed to alter the style of their sabre or its aplication forms. Nevertheless all of their armies had great experts in the use the said saber, causing lots of casualties in the Portuguese files. But in generical terms, the use of the Muslim sabre with shield was inferior to the Portuguese combination of sword and left hand dagger. This last part could be his patriotic way of view, i am just quoting him. Concerning your observation on the tulwar frequent offset of he langets, in my humble opinnion i would go for the version of the mount or remount. Maybe this could easier happen with the specimens without rivet fixation, for lack of consequent adjustment rigour. I keep seeing tulwars without rivets, namely the ancient ones, and in my fantasy the rivet addition came at a later stage ... but that could be because i haven't yet seen enough examples to be certain that these were concurrent versions. Mind you, the example i am showing here was surely remounted, as it had a new langet welded ... visibly not the the same piece put back, maybe because it was lost in battle ( to make it romantic ). Sorry for my impertinence Jim, as if i knew what i am talking about. I expect your usual tolerance. Kind regards fernando Attached Images

23rd September 2007, 09:41 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Fernando, A very good choice, starting to collect Indian. When you regard an Indian sword, you should not compare it to European swords, although there was an influence, but this came from many other countries as well. You should look at it as an Indian sword, and try to compare it to other Indian swords, more than to European swords. It is, no doubt, a fighting sword, and the repair, which on the picture, seems to be old, would not bother me. It is interesting to see the fuller placed low on the blade, which is unusual.

22nd September 2007, 11:31 PM	#2
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	This is a pretty generic example. If I may suggest there are much better examples in better condition out there. I beleive your money would be well spent on upgrading. Quality over quantity. No offence meant just a humble suggestion.

22nd September 2007, 11:39 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Ward I sincerly thank you for the advice. Kindest regards fernando

23rd September 2007, 12:26 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Thank you so much for your excellent response in kind!!! I really appreciate you going into detail with your very well placed observations, and think you are pretty much on target mostly. I am not too sure about the khanda though, I think the early examples seen iconographically are open hilt, but I do agree the knuckleguard seems likely pre European contact or outside that particular influence. The said influence may have reinforced the use of this element already in place, but more specific research needed. Very good points on the Portuguese fencing styles in comparison to that of Indian, and the point that even with shields used to receive blows, the dynamics of close combat would invariably result in blade to blade contact. In that case, one certainly would need some protection. Possibly the open hilt talwars were intended for court wear? But then even these occur in munitions grade, fighting use weapons. I think what you say on the angle of the langet, and of course it might have been rewelded as you suggest, these weapons were often 'in the shop' during thier working life! Ward, I agree with your note that this is a 'generic' example, but what I had noted was that was the beauty of it, its a good example of a sword not suggesting having been 'worked over'. I believe it would be good to use disgression on the price. I actually learned to favor these weathered and worn examples for thier integrity, but I admit a lot of it was my budget too! To me having a sound representative example that would not have been worthy of tampering was what I needed for study. These I viewed as solid pieces of history. All best regards, Jim

23rd September 2007, 10:45 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jens, Thank you so much for your observations,which i will duly note. fernando

24th September 2007, 01:45 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just a quick note: the ring on Polish-Hungarian sabers was not for the index finger, but for the thumb. It greatly improved blade control while the thumb was protected. This innovation was later adopted by other European militaries. Hooking the index finger into some retro-handguard loop would conceivably ease the thrusting control, but the sabers were for slashing.

25th September 2007, 10:28 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Ariel Quite understood. However i don't think this author would confuse saber inner guard thumb (polegar) ring, with index (indicador) finger protection ring in front of guard. Also he puts a few "Hungarian examples" in paralel with "one or another (Indian) experiment", as a failled intention to alter the ( Indian) saber style or/and its aplication form. There is no doubt of what he talks about; whether these things existed, it's another story . As we say over here, i am selling it for the price i bought it . fernando