My first Tulwar

[Emanuel]

Hello,

Perhaps a way to resolve the matter of whether or not tulwars were stored disassembled would be to look at the old catalogues when Indian armouries sold their stock to western auction houses and collectors. Were the countless tulwars sold assembled or disassembled? If assembled, would the armouries or the buyers go through all the trouble of re-hilting the thousands of tulwars that were bought?

Fernando, I recommend you start using eBay, there are loads of tulwars at cheap prices, as well as scores of other goodies. Here in Canada I think our situation is reversed from yours: our antique shops are empty and we have no junk shops. People here have little to no real interest in pre-WWI stuff. At military shows the cheap ethno tourist trinkets are priced off the scale, so ebay is the best alternative.

Regards,
Emanuel

[ariel]

Pant defines Gaddara as a yelman-ed sword with a triangular point ( see attached pic from his book). He attributes the origin of the name to "gadar" : engaging in riot, mutiny.
I also show the so-called Irani Gaddara, with a typical Persian/Polish Karabela-type handle, all steel. The blade has incised panels on both sides, with remnants of gilding.
Indian swords with a double-edge segment at the tip are, IMHO, descendants of Kalachoori and you may wish to look at the very end of the thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4223
where Odevan and myself are trying to come up with the origins of that name.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by spiral

Hi Fernando, can I suggest you look again at Tirris book, in. fig. 249 one is riveted twice, {Ive never seen double rivets on tulwar before.} & in fig 249c 3 have the single rivet fixing. So that 4 out of 12 tulwar showing rivets, { fig 249b they have none.} But realy unless you try to dissasemble the grip you can find what other hidden fixing there may be.
Spiral

Hi Spiral,

I confess my eyes were not correctly focused.
I wouldn't know that rivets were "disguised" by decoration. I was infuenced by the tulwar i saw at the seller i visited, that has no ( more ) decoration and the rivet is clearly seen , with no surrounding efects. I now can see them easy at Tirris book. Not wanting to argue for the sake of resisting to this fact, could it be that the ancient tulwars ( before XVI-XVII century ) were mostly unriveted ?

fernando

[fernando]

Originally Posted by spiral

If any tulwar were kept dissasembled, {something I personaly find hard to belive, but cannot disprove. dispite the fact it would logisticaly be a nightmare.}} they would only be the very lowest quality pieces for volonteers & conscripted peasents, as after all all the Marajahs, kings & major landowners whatever, had there own proffesional standing full time army & troops.
Spiral

Hi Spiral

This is contingent, as can be relative to the period at question.I will better revert with a strict and exaustive translation of page 189, that refers:

''' The main charateristic of this arm is little known, but rather interesting. Apart from individual arms that were manufactured for high rank personalities, more simple tulwars were also produced, in large quantities, for the Sovereigns arsenals. Invasions, popular insubordinations and palatial revolutions were very frequent. Few were the Sovereigns that dyed of natural causes. The state of war between ones and others was a frequente situation. In this atmosphere it became obvious that the possession and access to the arsenals were a preocupation of the greatest priority. A system was invented that impeached the possibility of using an Indian arsenal from one moment to the other. The handles of tulwars were built in metal ( usually iron ), joining guard, grip and pommel in one only piece, which doesn't happen in the majority of white weapons of other origins, where all these components were separated one from eachother. As tulwars handles were one only part, it became easy to join all these in one arsenal ( we are talking, in round numbers, in the order of the one hundred thousand handles ), and build a tower where these could be well kept with "seven keys" ( my commas , for a Portuguese figure of speech ). In another tower, distant from the first one, the respective blades were kept. When a sovereign decided to invade a neighbour country or prepare himself to defend his own, such event would be known within months of antecipation, which allowed for the mounting of the blades in their handles. Such blades had a short tang, which was neither peened, screwed, or stuck by a pin. To couple the blade with the grip, the late was turned upsidown, pouring in into his hollow part heated pitch, therefore liquid, as the blade was inserted. Once the pith cooled down, the blade would be fixed enough for battle, during years. In case it started to oscilate, the fixing system could allways be repeated. A strategic Sovereign would know how much time he needed to mount his army weapons and, taking precaution, had his arsenals ready in due time for the distribution of tulwars. In case of a mutiny or a palatial revolution, there was no time to mount the tulwars, in a manner that the arsenals were relatively protected from improper utilization.'''

As a curiosity, i have read in pages 244/255 of the same book that, between the XI and XVIII centuries, only twenty six out of the sixty four Industani Sovereigns left the throne due to natural death. As for the other twenty eight:
13 were killed (Gheias-oo-dee by his son and Seyed Mobarik at the mosque ).
8 were deposed/killed.
2 were deposed and blinded.
5 were deposed.
2 were deposed and expelled.
2 dyed in battle ( Ibraim Lodi in Paniput ).
1 was poisoned.
1 was emprisoned and killed.
1 dyed by accident.
1 fled after military defeat.
1 abdicated.
... Did i fail anyone ?

fernando

[fernando]

Originally Posted by spiral

Brass Brazing has been around for centurys in India.

For $280 I would want a very nice tulwar, but they are commen in England.

Spiral

Brass brazing, that's the term.
Thanks a lot for the info. I thaught well that the langet repair was a period one.
But maybe after all i don't buy the piece or, if i ever do, will counter offer a lower price, like 100 pounds.
Here between us two, i thaught you were posting from the the States.
Sorry for the mistake

fernando

[fernando]

Hi Emanuel,

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello,

Perhaps a way to resolve the matter of whether or not tulwars were stored disassembled would be to look at the old catalogues when Indian armouries sold their stock to western auction houses and collectors. Were the countless tulwars sold assembled or disassembled? If assembled, would the armouries or the buyers go through all the trouble of re-hilting the thousands of tulwars that were bought?

Flavio, I recommend you start using eBay, there are loads of tulwars at cheap prices, as well as scores of other goodies. Here in Canada I think our situation is reversed from yours: our antique shops are empty and we have no junk shops. People here have little to no real interest in pre-WWI stuff. At military shows the cheap ethno tourist trinkets are priced off the scale, so ebay is the best alternative.


Regards,
Emanuel

Between the historical time reflected in the book (relative to the Discoveries period, XVI-XVII century), and the stock sell out of the Indian Armouries, a good couple centuries were past. Probably some techniques and tatics were vanished by then, tulwars were not the massive vital weapon any more, thus not being the fulcrum of stategies.
The same thing could happen with their blade fixing system, rivets or no rivets ... what do i know?
I am not sayingt that the book author is not wrong or talking nonsense, but maybe some points should be considered, to give it the benefit of doubt.

I notice that you call me Flavio. I hope he doesn't mind you calling me his name ... i don't
I don't use eBay by option, based on various reasons ... some of them subjective: I hate to wait long for things to arrive, i hate that they are submited to customs with whatever unexpected results, i hate to find out that the thing i ordered is not what i expected ( i am already sucker enough without that ), i hate to bid and loose, and i hate the idea to find one more way to spend money. Even sticking only to what i find in shops and junk fairs around here, is more than enough for me to expand my consumism vice.
BTW, pre WW1 stuff is still to modern for my taste. I also neither fancy reproductions nor still active pieces. I like real antique things, XIX century or prior, as if i were a tycoon
When i feel that my pockets are full, i travel to Lisbon to visit my daughter ( some 220 miles ), and go to a couple specialized shops there, where one can find tones of good old and serious ( expensive ) stuff.
All the best
fernando

[Emanuel]

Hi Fernando, I apologize for the mistake. I had one of Flavio's threads open at the same time, I was tired and both of you start with F

What you say about the storing of swords in the time of Discovery could be valid. I wonder, are there no texts or treatises by Indian generals/strategists/etc ? There must be some sort of documentation left over from those times.

I always envy you folks on the home continent. Go in any shop and you're bound to find some treasure. Canadians generally go for the Wars memorabilia, understandably but saddly for me .

Best regards,
Emanuel

[spiral]

No worrys Fernando, I would say yes I am an English gentleman but you already know that isnt true....

Thankyou for the excert of Rainer Daehnhardt`s. I must admit I havent read any o the 60 plus military history books hes written so far . He certanly turns them out fast!

Interesting that he has reputedly collection of more than 500.000 swords, guns, canons, pommels, maps and manuscripts related to the Portuguese Discoveries & the people they met. {great euphimism!} If he looked at each piece for five minutes, non stop for 10 hours a day evry day it would take him 15years! that combined with having written over 60 books actualy makes me wonder somewhat about his material. But I guess I am a skeptic.



500,000 pieces, that would arm several of the great old Indian armys in thier intirity! So realy he should be a great resource of hands on expierience, but I do wonder....

It seems he has a shop as well, perhaps you know it?

Avenida Engenheiro Duarte Pacheco, Amoreiras Shopping, loja 1031, Campolide, 1070-100 Lisbon.

Tel: 213 833 249

It might be woth visiting?

He might even have a few tens of thousands of old kukris to get rid off if I am lucky!


But seriosly, does he state any source of his statemets about the separate storage of handels & blades?

I see one of his books it titled "Men, Weapons & Balls" & I rather fear that title may be rather accurate collouquly speaking.

But perhaps I am wrong & I certanly cant proove he is.

I would like to see some of his other works I think...

Spiral

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Fernando, I apologize for the mistake. I had one of Flavio's threads open at the same time, I was tired and both of you start with F

No problem ... even usefull for discussions becoming less intense

Originally Posted by Manolo

What you say about the storing of swords in the time of Discovery could be valid. I wonder, are there no texts or treatises by Indian generals/strategists/etc ? There must be some sort of documentation left over from those times.

If there is somebody that could hold historical material of such level, the author of this ( and many ) books is potentially one or actualy the best of them. I can't put my hands ( hand ) on fire if he is developing some fantasy on the tulwar subject, but he holds the most precious specimens of weaponry, cannonery, armoury, documentations, cargo inventories, maps and portolanos , you name whatelse, of the discoveries period ... and not only. He is the owner of some items collections, like sword pommels and other, to the gauge of largest in the world. He was visited by the British Museum to inventory and photograph some of his collections ( was it the pommels or the gun locks ? ). He has plenty ranks and credentials both in Portugal and Europe. One of the persons that managed to visit his mannor house was Antonio Cejunior, a member of this Forum.
http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/RDCollection.htm
Only he is not an web guy ... otherwise i would advice you ( or anyone else ) to check with him about the tulwar subject. The shops i mentioned in Lisbon are actually his own. This way he can sell his excedents and specially buy more and more stuff for his collection. Everytimes i go there and have a chance, i ask him to "lecture" me about a determined specimen. He "connects the turbos" and keeps disserting on the subject for hours, untill the next client or fellow collector or friend arrives.

Originally Posted by Manolo

I always envy you folks on the home continent. Go in any shop and you're bound to find some treasure. Canadians generally go for the Wars memorabilia, understandably but saddly for me .
Best regards,
Emanuel

Not so simple as claping hands ... but if one has the money, curious things show up, every now and then.

Lots of health for you
fernando

[spiral]

Originally Posted by fernando

Remember this is a small country and there are'nt many old weapons around.

I think Mr. Rhienheardt can explain why that is!


Well if he has got that many pieces thats incredible, he could build the most arms impresive museam in the world!

But its still true that If he looked at each piece for five minutes, non stop for 10 hours a day evry day it would take him 15years!

Its a pity there arnt more photos of his collection online.

Spiral

[fernando]

Hi Spiral
Part of the answer is in the answer i just posted to Manolo.
I wouldn't know if the count is 500 000 items, but you must consider not only basic weaponry specimens but also periphericals, amunitions, accessories, documents and all sorts of devices. He lends and donates specimens to Museums and keeps permanent exhibitions in various places.
The book you mention is in its fourth edition and is actually called in Portuguese "Homens Espadas e Tomates" = "Men Swords and Tomatoes" which comes to the same. It's in fact the book i quoted on the tulwar theme and, that i know, Jim McDougall, Philip Tom and Marc Gener have a copy. I have three other of his works. Some are bilingual. I take it that the others are more on the historical side and don't discuss or depict weapons themselves, which is not my interest. I also ignore if the books he wrote are such sixty, or if some of them are just thematic articles, but i know that he writes introductions and makes evaluations for fine weapons auctions catalogues, from wich i have one or two. He is also the guy selected by the Courts when it comes the need for antique weapons expertize. Among various ranks, he is the President of the Portuguese Academy of Antique Arms, from which i have a couple bilingual bulletins. In other words, exorbitating or not, i bet he feels well above those that may pretend to question his deeds . You know, when a guy is good and famous at something, he has more perrogatives to enhance his knowledge or even "invent" variations, than greyish folks. Speaking about his balls accuracy, i heard that he goes on his third wife .
Yes, as i told Emanuel, i know the shop you mention and another one in Cascais. I also know that he once opened another one in London, in front of Harrods, to buy stuff from Portuguese Aristocracy that fled from Portugal during the last revolution in 1974. As an example, he has bought from an unamed Marquis lots of precious documentation from the XVI and XVII century.
About you having not read any of his works, you know the British phlegm ... Portuguese ? Discoveries? what in heck is that ?
Exceptionaly one of the best or even unique Portuguese works from the XVIII century, ESPINGARDA PERFEITA = THE PERFECT GUN, was translated by him and a British called W. Keith Neal, and was selling for 10 pounds by Sotheby Parke Bernet, in 1974. Maybe you didn't exist at the time or were not old enough to buy books?! At leasdt i didn't see you around when i stayed in Britain for a couple months back in 1967
As for his other works i have or know, i can apoint them to you or even scan some of the pages, depending on your area of interest ... no big deal. Even if they are poor stuff, one allways gets to now more than before he reads them.
Sincerly
fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fernando,
Thank you for adding the excerpt from the Daehnhardt reference, it really has a lot of fascinating detail (its great to have the translated material since the text is in Portuguese and Ive always been resigned to admiring the illustrations. The discussion on whether the swords were stored intact or disassembled is truly an interesting aside here, and it is a topic I have really never been aware of nor considered.
It is an interesting idea that you have added some support for by showing the chronic unrest experienced in these kingdoms! It is interesting that the sword that Ariel has so kindly posted here is termed 'gaddara', a term that refers to riot or mutiny, suggesting that these events occurred enough that a sword type might be colloquially referred to by the term.

It seems to me that there are so many terms, concepts, misperceptions etc. in the study of arms and armour and history, and these have often led to myths, legends and folklore perpetuated by romanticizing and interpretation by later writers. Often these 'chestnuts' ( an English figure of speech are interjected into books, articles and narratives, and in these are seldom, if ever, referenced.
With this being the case, it is quite easy to imagine someone as immersed in a literal sea of antiquities and historica as Mr. Daehnhardt, adding such detail in writing without reference.
How lucky you are to have such a figure nearby Fernando! It would be so incredibly amazing for the opportunity to visit him and his collections!

It would seem that the fabricating of tulwar hilts, or others such as katars, in a single piece would be ease of manufacture. The well established use of trade blades, and probable existance of voluminous stores of these components in arsenals having been received from incoming vendors or traders, might have been in varying stages of assembly. Possibly the rulers saw no urgent need to employ furbishers in such assemblies until threat was perceived (sounds like pretty regularly though!).

While it is not noted by those who witnessed the removal of the arsenal materials, whether the weapons were intact or not, it is noted they were huge heaps of rusted metal mostly, and only the best examples were kept. Possibly what may have been implied was 'intact' examples ? as well as obviously those in better condition. As Manolo has suggested, the catalogues reflect many examples which were all intact from what I have seen. The most prominant armoury disassembly was of course Tanjore, and Elgood discusses this in "Hindu Arms and Ritual", huge numbers of items were acquired by Walhouse, who then furnished them to Oldman, whose catalogs are legion. Many of the items ended up with our sage of arms and armour, George Cameron Stone, who bequethed the majority to the Metropolitan Museum in New York.

Ariel,
I would like to thank you very much for so kindly posting the 'gaddara' entry from Pant, posting the page and especially for posting the magnificent example with it! I have been asking for posting of some of these entries in Pant as I do not have access to my copy and I know that many readers do not have copies, and the material is I think important in our discussions on Indian weapons.
I know I can only speak for myself, but I am sure many others are grateful as I am for your continued posts, observations and for answering the call as in this case. It is truly very much appreciated!

all very best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Originally Posted by spiral

Well if he has got that many pieces thats incredible, he could build the most arms impresive museam in the world!

But its still true that If he looked at each piece for five minutes, non stop for 10 hours a day evry day it would take him 15years!

Its a pity there arnt more photos of his collection online.

Spiral

I see that you are at your best dividing 500 000 by time minutes ... without even a break for tea ( or pee ).
And what kind of 500 000 ... weapons or objects ? if it is objects, you can look to an entire row at same time. Therefore that is cheating
I have seen pictures with tulwars, samshirs and the like, stuffed in antique clay pots ... with a glimpse you can look at lots of them ... i can scan you pictures of these.
Come on Spiral?!
What has happened to your IQ ?
Where did you pick that 500 000 figure from ?
Some guy without controll of decimals ?
I find it rather implausible, even considering the so many bullets he acquires from firemen who pick them from the bushes when they act in the area of Lisbon defences, built for the Napoleonic invasions in 1809 ... remember Wellington ?
I bought him some of these bullets ... as many as the ones he doesn't need to look at any more.
Judging by the kukris i have already seen at his shop, i wouln't be surpised if he had a good number of them in his private collection. I remeber seing years ago in his Cascais shop a huge one, with a blade about half meter long ( almost two feet in your language ). I don't know if this was a decoration piece or what but, if memory helps, it had a label warning for its dangerous sharpeness. Probably you also find this hard to beleive but, this time, it is i who stand above that
I also told Emanuel that he has several pieces spread by various Museums and exhibitions, so that is another quantity that he is prevented to look at
But if the amount of weaponry and accessory obects he holds is a matter for your preoccupation, i can phone the girl at the Amoreiras shop and ask her for the right number.
After all, and if the business is on the basis of presumption, i would advance that your kukris collection, as big as it may be, would fit in one of the drawers at his mannor house ... don't take it bad .
And once you mentioned something about sword blades, i can tell you about a certain rapier blade that i bought the other day in a flea market and have posted in this Forum for apreciation. I had bought the thing for 50 euros and, when i showed it to him for identification, i don't know what he found in it that he offered me for it 500 euros discount in any piece i wanted to pick at his shop. This blade was surely usefull for him, as he told me that he had lots of others kept in "big bertha " cannon shells ... you know these, don't you ? No need to tell he is a rather wealthy guy, and he surely buys anything interesting that moves around.
All the best
fernando

[Emanuel]

Hi Fernando,

The figure of five hundred thousand pieces is given by Antonio Conceicao on the link you provided . How many of these are weapons is open to debate I guess, but I assume Mr. Daenhardt would need some sort of warehouse besides his mannor to store them adequately.

Ariel, thanks for posting the gaddara pics. The sword immediately brought to mind the sabre attributed to Charlemagne.
Interesting that gaddara sounds a lot like qaddara, albeit a completely different sword form.

I don't want to hijack the thread but speaking of foreign influences, what we call a firangi is, according to E. Jaiwant Paul, called so only when a trade blade is involved. Otherwise it is called a dhup or alternatively a sukhela (Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India, p.56)

Emanuel

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

Pant defines Gaddara as a yelman-ed sword with a triangular point ( see attached pic from his book). He attributes the origin of the name to "gadar" : engaging in riot, mutiny.
I also show the so-called Irani Gaddara, with a typical Persian/Polish Karabela-type handle, all steel. The blade has incised panels on both sides, with remnants of gilding.
Indian swords with a double-edge segment at the tip are, IMHO, descendants of Kalachoori and you may wish to look at the very end of the thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4223
where Odevan and myself are trying to come up with the origins of that name.

Hi Ariel,
I am much obliged for your response, clarifying things for me and other interested members.
Your Irani-Gaddara is beautyfull.
I can see that the Pant's Gaddara specimen is rather different than the sword with same atribution depicted by Tirri, which is closer to the piece i am questioning. But i take it from you that the Pant's specimen is the real gaddara.
On the other hand i assimilate that neither looks like the piece i saw, which has a blade more curved than the one at Tirri's and doesn't have such a pronounced yelmen and triangular tip like in Pant's drawing. So i am considering the possibility of the piece i query on, being such Kalachoori descendent you mention, which eventually i had followed in the thread you started on the Kilij. I am now not so much inclined to buy it, as the price seems to be a bit exagerated. But if i will, or if at least i take some pictures of it, i will come back here to show it, to take any doubts.
Thanks once again.
fernando

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Fernando,

The figure of five hundred thousand pieces is given by Antonio Conceicao on the link you provided . How many of these are weapons is open to debate I guess, but I assume Mr. Daenhardt would need some sort of warehouse besides his mannor to store them adequately.

Emanuel

Hi Emanuel
I have passed the link with no other intention than showing the only material plubished in the net with an aproach to Rainer Daehnhardt's collection. He seems not to worry to advance with some material himself, or even invite others to do it for him. I didn't even mind about the 500 000 pieces allusion, as i would never subscribe it, unless an extraordinary interpretation was added to support such aparently absurd figure. Otherwise and to put it elegantly, i would say this was a misprint.
I don't even know if Antonio noticed this, and or if has an explanation to that. Naturaly he doesn't even know i am using the link in this context, but it is published and has free access.
Some time ago i was talking to Daenhardt's shop senior employee about his collection universe, and she mentioned some figure where the term thousand was aplicable. I just don't remember how many thousands she mentioned, but surely not five hundred of them, i would say.
I think he might have some supporting storage facilities. Last time i have been there, he spoke about a house he had with large weapons quantities, which during the revolution period the left wing government wanted to nationalize, issuing a requisition for the house and the pieces. He has appealed against that measure and all he could get was to be paid for both house and collection, but he had to let them go. Maybe he has other facilities, i wouldn't be surprised.
Remember however that a great collection of manuscripts, maps, portolanos and that kind of stuff easily ascends to large amounts and doesn't require that much space to store, as relatively easy to stack in large numbers.
... in a consensual expression, of course.
Best regards
fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Good call on the Charlemagne sword Manolo!!! It sure does bring that to mind.
Thank you for the note on the 'firangi' (and reference) !


All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi Jim,
As usually, your postings are most generous,

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

With this being the case, it is quite easy to imagine someone as immersed in a literal sea of antiquities and historica as Mr. Daehnhardt, adding such detail in writing without reference.
Jim

Very well put. I used to be skeptical about his bombastic statements, before i became aware of his possibilities in terms of material and information gathered. Some time ago a connection i have in Australia wanted to know how his uncle, an old artillery reconstitution specialist, would reproduce gunpowder barrels, in terms of their marks in the old days. I have visited the museum of the oldest gunpowder Factory in Portugal, and found nothing. I later phoned the museum curators and they knew nothing about the subject. Just in case i decided to ask Rainer Daehnhardt if he could tell me something about this issue. Well, he told me he happened to have in his collection
several shipping inventories ( cargo manifests ) of the XVI century, and he knew by mind the marking system employed in the gunpowder barrels at the period. I have found this an amazing episode.
best regards
fernando

[fernando]

Hi Spiral
here are some of the books written by Rainer Daehnhardt:

http://aeterna.no.sapo.pt/lusophia/p...oes_rainer.htm
http://www.livapolo.pt/index.php?act...sao=3174&seq=1

Some time i will scan some beautyfull unique pieces he has exhibited around.
Regards
fernando

[spiral]

Originally Posted by fernando

I wouldn't know if the count is 500 000 items, but you must consider not only basic weaponry specimens but also periphericals, amunitions, accessories, documents and all sorts of devices.
I also ignore if the books he wrote are such sixty,

All the information I citeed came from the same website you then linked to. You might find worth reading?

Originally Posted by fernando

. You know, when a guy is good and famous at something, he has more perrogatives to enhance his knowledge or even "invent" variations, than greyish folks. .

This is true, It doesnt make it neccasarily accurate though.

Originally Posted by fernando

About you having not read any of his works, you know the British phlegm ... Portuguese ? Discoveries? what in heck is that ?
. Even if they are poor stuff, one allways gets to now more than before he reads them.

I recall the portugese owned a fair bit of the world & only gave it up when forced to quite recently? & that the Portugese king bribed the Brit king with a gift of Bombay to get his ugly daughter married off many years ago ? Something like that anyway.

All western Europe did ok at ransacking the thirld world when we had guns & cannons & the natives didnt.

i also agree I to try learn from evry blade or book.

Originally Posted by fernando

Judging by the kukris i have already seen at his shop, i wouln't be surpised if he had a good number of them in his private collection. I remeber seing years ago in his Cascais shop a huge one, with a blade about half meter long ( almost two feet in your language ). I don't know if this was a decoration piece or what but, if memory helps, it had a label warning for its dangerous sharpeness. Probably you also find this hard to beleive but, this time, it is i who stand above that

Sounds good, ones that size are usualy either for tourists or beheading buffalo at festival time. A few old rare warriers ones also reached that size.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by fernando

After all, and if the business is on the basis of presumption, i would advance that your kukris collection, as big as it may be, would fit in one of the drawers at his mannor house ... don't take it bad .

Thats cool, if money was of the that important thing to me I woud have married the American hieress who wanted me to a few years ago.

Actualy I only keep examples of type & of course the best as well of the kukris I come across. Otherwise it seems boring, I dont collect by quantity. But each to there own. I know some collectors who keep evrything they buy.

I suggest you read up here & in litrature about tulwar etc. & then get him to sell you a realy good one.

Originally Posted by fernando

I see that you are at your best dividing 500 000 by time minutes ... without even a break for tea ( or pee ).
And what kind of 500 000 ... weapons or objects ? if it is objects, you can look to an entire row at same time. Therefore that is cheating

I think youll find youve mentioned this more than I did? & if someone is daft enough to think they can look an entire row of hand made items & assume they know them then thats shows a great lack of understanding.

Originally Posted by fernando

I have seen pictures with tulwars, samshirs and the like, stuffed in antique clay pots ... with a glimpse you can look at lots of them ... i can scan you pictures of these.

I want to see photos showing the many thousands, not a few stuffed in pots,etc. I see that in most houses I visit.

Originally Posted by fernando

Exceptionaly one of the best or even unique Portuguese works from the XVIII century, ESPINGARDA PERFEITA = THE PERFECT GUN, was translated by him and a British called W. Keith Neal, and was selling for 10 pounds by Sotheby Parke Bernet, in 1974. Maybe you didn't exist at the time or were not old enough to buy books?! At leasdt i didn't see you around when i stayed in Britain for a couple months back in 1967

Well I see you are aware of my youthfull good looks! its true i only owned 3 or 4 gun books at that time I must admit, but used to shoot clay pigeons evry sunday morning & go rough shooting occasionly, if only you were there I could have learnt so much!

Lets, see, tulwar were stored without handles, India only had 29 kings in that time period, & tulwar handels in Tirris book show no rivets. O yes & you thought I made up the 500 000 figure.

mmmmmmmmmmmm

[spiral]

Originally Posted by fernando

Come on Spiral?!
What has happened to your IQ ?
Where did you pick that 500 000 figure from ?
Some guy without controll of decimals ?

I repeat, {as I obviously have to... }
All the information I posted came from the same website you then linked to. You might it find worth reading? IQ is most of use when allied to a little practicality & common sense after all.

Your favorite auther,dealer etc. obviously has a fantastic collection & would have much available knowledge, & I am sure wouldnt be concerned that I am not convinced by the theorys you have proposed, so far.

But thats ok.

Yours truly,
Spiral

[fernando]

Hi Spiral

Let's keep sporty.

I see no point in getting off topic, like bringing Queens and ransackings to discussion, on a hill-feeling basis.

Is there something you didn't bear in my posting, that i must apologize for?

Shouldn't we stick back to coherency in the area of arms collecting and its immediate supporting argumentation, with more or less humor?

I already said i wouldn't subscribe the 500 000 pieces, as being either an implausible aproach or even a misprint. As i already transmitted in a previous posting to Emanuel, i have passed the link for purposes other than for picking on that number and give it such an importance. Besides, i have read the article a couple years ago and didn't even remember about such figure ... as not even a point worth for questioning. My attention went more for the rare weapons the guy has, that i would like to have myself.

I already posted here links with more than twenty of his books that remain on market on line. It is not so dificult to admit he has writen sixty in his all life.

Enhancing knowledge and "inventing" variations are implicitly inaccurate situations, at least in academic terms. Nobody said the contrary.

It is true that nothing is left from Portuguese colonianism ... which makes me proud. We were forced to leave the colonies ... don't you know other nations that were also forced to do it, sometimes by the might of one only man? But honestly i don't know what this has to do with old weapons collecting , or how it belongs to topic, even as a side efect.

Indeed Catarina de Bragança married Charles II in the XVII century. Some bad tongues say she was so ugly that she had to carry a great dowry for the Brit King to accept her. Some others say that such story was invented by the King's staff, to cover up his ineptitude at picking such an horrendous creature. But if you are one of those traditional tea drinkers, remember that was she who implemented such beverage costum in England. However i hardly see Dona Catarina as a weapons collector ... i don't know about Charles II.

Sometimes natives also had guns and cannons, only that Europeans had them or handled them better. But nobody does o.k. by ransaking anybody else. I don't see your point.

The mentioning of looking to several pieces in a row was naturally another figure of speech. Just a rebating to your keen intention of numbering the necessary years to look at the 500 000 pieces. I see you didn't catch my intent.

I wouldn't know what you mean by India only having 29 Kings in whatever period. What i have learnt and said in my posting was that Industani India had 64 Kings between XVI-XVIII centuries. Are you referring to this?

I told you i was expecting to see naked rivets in Tirris tulwars, like i see in many other swords i have, as also in the tulwar example i personnaly saw, and not surrounded by decoration efects. I have admited my lack of
knowledge? Why are you coming back to this subject?

I didn't say you made up the 500 000 figure, nor did it occur to me who might have told you that. And neither did you mention in the first place where you got it. But i immediately told you that whatever was the source, couldn't controll decimals ( another figure of speech). However and if you think it is worth, you are naturally free to discuss this point with Antonio Cejunior. It is a public link, and maybe he has an explanation for that figure.

I was the first to tell that the book author is not concerned over our poor profile discussions.

He is not my favourite dealer. He is the only actual antique arms seller established in the country. There is another one in Oporto but is only a
small shop, with a reduced number of pieces, together with other non relative curious.

Also Mr. Daehnhardt isn't my favourite author. I actually don't share his horizons, outside the strict weaponry matter. It just happens that he is practically the only guy around that wrote more than just a single or a couple books on old arms. I buy what shows up in the market on the theme. All i seek in his works is the pieces pictures, their detail info and historical data. Same as when i go to his shop/s and i buy ( or don't buy ) some item, and he prompts to freely lecture me on items that i brought along for his apreciation.
I think i have been clear on this subject.

But what theories am i proposing ? I have simply quoted a book, in response to a coment made by David, and you started spitefully hammering me like you had some kind of prejudice?!

You don't agree with the man's statement that in the XVI century, tulwars were stored separated from handles ? No problem, i make a note of that and, next time i visit him, i will find an oportunity to tell him that ... honestly.
Probably he will come up with some kind of justification.

I hope not to have tease you with my wording, by any means. If so, accept my apologies. But please be so gentle and don't look to tease me back. You are in clear advantage, as english is you mother language.

Keep well

fernando

[spiral]

I think you were teasing me & doing it well Fernando!

So yes I was a little "tounge in cheek" as we say.

But no worrys your English is excelent & I guess our teasing doesnt realy take the thread any further forward.

I actualy include England in my statment about western European colonial scenarios.

This thread has certanly brought up some interesting theorys, thankyou.

Sadley at this point not truly much of substance I can add to it.

Take care,
Spiral