My first Tulwar

fernando · 11th September 2007, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Battara

I think that what you may be seeing is just some left over oxidation pattern I tried to fix the picture up but did not see anything.

Lew

Thanks for both your postings Lew, i think you ( and Jim and Jens ) are quite right. I am unexperienced in the area, but looking at this blade steel i don't discern any activity, except for oxidation and or patination. I am posting a bit more enhanced picture, for confirmation.
fernando

fernando · 11th September 2007, 10:04 PM

Hi Jim,
Much obliged for your comprehensive input. It will take me some time to absorve it. I hope something further comes up on the decoration subject. Eventually this motiv is only on one side of the blade, the back side is plain.

Hi Jens,
I am glad you find this a nice piece. Here are pictures taken with different light and background. As i said above, the decoration is only on one side of the blade. Does this mean something unusual ?
It is a pitty you find the age of this tulwar as recent as 1850-1900

. Jim and Ariel's opinnion was more favourable

... i am a fan of antiquity in weapons. But against facts there are no arguments, as we say over here.

Further coments will be more than welcome. One thing i would love to reach a general consensus is whether this is a ceremonial or an action ( infantry )sword

Thanks all again

fernando

katana · 11th September 2007, 10:36 PM

Usually, though not always, a blade decorated on one side only.... is usually 'ceremonial'. It is a nice Tulwar, I like it , congrats Fernando

I would have thought that a coverted wootz blade would never be 'heavily engraved' with designs ....or are they

fernando · 11th September 2007, 10:58 PM

Thanks a lot David, for both congrats and info.
I'll bear that in mind.

I would have thought that a coverted wootz blade would never be 'heavily engraved' with designs ....or are they

This one is for the experts.

Jim McDougall · 12th September 2007, 04:22 AM

You are welcome Fernando, it is an interesting tulwar and it is enjoyable to discuss its possibilities. I am really glad to see Jens come in on this. He's handled more tulwars than anyone I know, so his suggestion of more into the 19th century is probably correct. It is very difficult to really estimate age on these and it is unclear whether slight variations suggest different period or regional preference and I am not aware of the chronological progression of hilt elements. I was not aware that the quillons angled downward suggested an earlier example but it is an interesting concept.

As David has noted, the motif on the face of the blade does seem to suggest a ceremonial or parade weapon. It may have been carried blade upright, face forward with the motif displayed. If this was the case, it would be interesting to know if there was particular symbolism in the motif, what sort of flower would that be?....Jens what do you think?

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 12th September 2007, 04:12 PM

Fernando, don’t be disappointed about my dating. Dating Indian weapons is at the best a vague guess in most cases, and even blades with a date inscribed can’t always be trusted, so Ariel and Jim’s guess may be right due to the decoration and the wear. You don’t see this decoration on a blade often, so a bit of research should give you a good idea of from where in India it comes. It is interesting that the blade is only decorated on one side, but it happens now and again, probably due to cost saving I would think.

Katana, 'heavely engraved' blades can be made of wootz, but this is seldom, besides, 'if' the blade is 'only' engraved on one side due to cost saving, the blade would not be made of wootz, as this would have made the blade more expensive, but there can also have been other reasons for it being decorated on one side.
Jim/Katana, this could be a cermonial tulwar, although I am not convinsed. Tell me another thing, could/would some of the cermonial weapons have been used in war?

katana · 12th September 2007, 05:43 PM

Thanks for the info Jens

....I am surprised that some wootz blades are 'heavily engraved' for several reasons....the main one being that I would imagine due to wootz's 'granular construction' of harder and softer steels it would make chiseling more difficult and less predictable as the steel's hardness is not 'uniform'.

Hi Jim

,
I do agree that the motifs would probably provide a good indication as to whether it's ceremonial. It has occured to me that perhaps the design being 'one sided' is not ceremonial afterall.

In my 'mind's eye' I see the possibillity that a type of 'sword salute' displaying the engraved side could show personal or 'clan' loyalty or have religious, talismatic or cultural meaning , either directed at the enemy or your own fellow warriors/commanders

Hi Fernando

,
how does the Tulwar 'feel' ....do you think that the balance etc, would make this a good functional sword. Is the blade edged where the decorated part of the blade is ?

Regards David

11th September 2007, 10:04 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jim, Much obliged for your comprehensive input. It will take me some time to absorve it. I hope something further comes up on the decoration subject. Eventually this motiv is only on one side of the blade, the back side is plain. Hi Jens, I am glad you find this a nice piece. Here are pictures taken with different light and background. As i said above, the decoration is only on one side of the blade. Does this mean something unusual ? It is a pitty you find the age of this tulwar as recent as 1850-1900 . Jim and Ariel's opinnion was more favourable ... i am a fan of antiquity in weapons. But against facts there are no arguments, as we say over here. Further coments will be more than welcome. One thing i would love to reach a general consensus is whether this is a ceremonial or an action ( infantry )sword Thanks all again fernando Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 11th September 2007 at 11:11 PM.

11th September 2007, 10:36 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Usually, though not always, a blade decorated on one side only.... is usually 'ceremonial'. It is a nice Tulwar, I like it , congrats Fernando I would have thought that a coverted wootz blade would never be 'heavily engraved' with designs ....or are they

11th September 2007, 10:58 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks a lot David, for both congrats and info. I'll bear that in mind. I would have thought that a coverted wootz blade would never be 'heavily engraved' with designs ....or are they This one is for the experts.

12th September 2007, 04:22 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	You are welcome Fernando, it is an interesting tulwar and it is enjoyable to discuss its possibilities. I am really glad to see Jens come in on this. He's handled more tulwars than anyone I know, so his suggestion of more into the 19th century is probably correct. It is very difficult to really estimate age on these and it is unclear whether slight variations suggest different period or regional preference and I am not aware of the chronological progression of hilt elements. I was not aware that the quillons angled downward suggested an earlier example but it is an interesting concept. As David has noted, the motif on the face of the blade does seem to suggest a ceremonial or parade weapon. It may have been carried blade upright, face forward with the motif displayed. If this was the case, it would be interesting to know if there was particular symbolism in the motif, what sort of flower would that be?....Jens what do you think? Best regards, Jim

12th September 2007, 04:12 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Fernando, don’t be disappointed about my dating. Dating Indian weapons is at the best a vague guess in most cases, and even blades with a date inscribed can’t always be trusted, so Ariel and Jim’s guess may be right due to the decoration and the wear. You don’t see this decoration on a blade often, so a bit of research should give you a good idea of from where in India it comes. It is interesting that the blade is only decorated on one side, but it happens now and again, probably due to cost saving I would think. Katana, 'heavely engraved' blades can be made of wootz, but this is seldom, besides, 'if' the blade is 'only' engraved on one side due to cost saving, the blade would not be made of wootz, as this would have made the blade more expensive, but there can also have been other reasons for it being decorated on one side. Jim/Katana, this could be a cermonial tulwar, although I am not convinsed. Tell me another thing, could/would some of the cermonial weapons have been used in war?

12th September 2007, 05:43 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thanks for the info Jens ....I am surprised that some wootz blades are 'heavily engraved' for several reasons....the main one being that I would imagine due to wootz's 'granular construction' of harder and softer steels it would make chiseling more difficult and less predictable as the steel's hardness is not 'uniform'. Hi Jim , I do agree that the motifs would probably provide a good indication as to whether it's ceremonial. It has occured to me that perhaps the design being 'one sided' is not ceremonial afterall. In my 'mind's eye' I see the possibillity that a type of 'sword salute' displaying the engraved side could show personal or 'clan' loyalty or have religious, talismatic or cultural meaning , either directed at the enemy or your own fellow warriors/commanders Hi Fernando , how does the Tulwar 'feel' ....do you think that the balance etc, would make this a good functional sword. Is the blade edged where the decorated part of the blade is ? Regards David