A Kris-Tanto or hybridation as an answer

[Tim Simmons]

Antonio and his chum are working to very high standards. There are obvious problems of mixing styles without a living reason to do so. This is a good example showing how quality workmanship and design can be far removed from art. I think to see hybridisation as art look no further than the Mauser inspired sword, it speaks to you very sympathetically.

[ariel]

Guys, can we discuss things without rancor?
Some may like the dagger, some may not, some may think it is too "fantasy" to qualify as ethnographic, all this is fine.
I just think there is no sense getting personal.
I'd rather see similar re-interpretations ( that exercise imagination) than pseudo-faithful renditions of authentic weapons that pretend to be real but are not. This one is an "in-your-face" dagger and is fun to look at.
For me, a modern-made sword replicating the old pattern always carries a whiff of a commercial fake. This one does not pretend to look antique and authentic: it is art. Judge it by its own standards.

[Jim McDougall]

I would like to note that although it is obvious that the piece created by Antonio and Paolo is entirely an artistic creation, I found it fascinating to see how it was done as well as the harmony between designer and artisan. While this may not be well placed in a forum dedicated to preserving the history and development of ethnographic edged weapons forms, it presents very interesting perspective on how hybrid weapons often evolved historically. As Tim well pointed out, the 'Mauser sword' item being an excellent case in point.

I share the same passion for preserving not only the history of the weapons we study, but the weapons themselves ,and always dread those who carry out overcleanings, excessive 'restorations' and of course fakes and fraudulent composites. This creation was none of these.

In my opinion, the creation that Antonio presented was a beautiful piece of art, not intended as a reproduction nor as a representative example, and I very much appreciated seeing it. I realize how passionately those here that are involved in these weapons perceive them, and am constantly amazed at the knowledge on them that is shared here, but cannot see how this creation could be construed as anything but art.

Best regards,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

Its art Jim but not as we know it. at last.

There is a big industry, those art print shops in every big town that sell art for people who do not like art.

[rand]

Don't quite understand the concept that traditional weapons didn't cross boundries while this modern dagger does.


Influences from neighboring countries or regions that trade is done with have had an influence on culture,weapons and armor throughout history and we would have to start with the rock and stick if we wanted to give a study for reference of this.

Aesthetically the blade had a refined tribal form coupled with a ritual function, the hilt looked off balance but that may have been because of the angle the photo was taken from. Also liked the concept of using the Indonesian type of bolsa to snug the dagger into the scabbard. The designs cut into the edge of the blade carry asthetic and cultural symbols that add value to the holder/owner. Personally would have preferred seeing the drilled hole in the blade completely covered with a silver decoration with some sort of an associated design.

Most people would say the style of dagger is based on a Japanese tanto. Or is it really? We could discuss where the Japanese got their basic design from, now that would put a hitch in the road, especially if it went back to China. There was a good reason for Japan to stay so isolated, they just did it to well and too long.

Sometimes if you want to know what works when making something you need only to look at objects from history, believe a 15th century German sallet was the basis for the German 20th century helmet.

Can understand the concept of wanting to keep a discussion in a certain time period, just as one may want to have a show of antique weapons only. But then antique has to be over a hundred years old by definition. So where would one draw the line? Because thats what much of the response is doing, drawing a line in the dirt as was done outside the Alamo by Colonel Ben Milam.

Its a tough question....

For me my answer used to be the Franco Prussian War of 1870-71, because this was the first time that modern rifled firearms decimated men wearing armor(French heavy cavalry), but that left out all the great Russian metalwork on shashkas, daggers and firearms, left out the tribal weapons of the 20th century archipelgo, left out the decline of the sabre in modern armies, left out the progression of the bayonette, left out the change of materials for armor.

Where would you draw the line?

rand

[Jim McDougall]

Well said Rand! It seems that a very wise man once told me that weapons do not have geographic boundaries! That would seem to imply geopolitical and cultural boundaries were included.
I have always believed that even weapons quite basic in form often subtlely carry art in the sense of certain features or symbolism. These of course may have been derived from other cultures or influences and in many cases have no known purpose other than long forgotten symbolism or vestigial presence.
One example would be the placement of notches in the back of the blade of Meditteranean knives which ended up being a feature in the famed Bowie knife. As far as is known, the reason for this feature has no pratical purpose and any symbolism is long forgotten, yet the early Bowies often carried the feature.

Best regards,
Jim

[VANDOO]

ANTONIO IS MOTIVATED BY A SEARCH FOR NEW IDEAS NOT THE AMASSING OF A COLLECTION OF OLD FORMS AS WE ARE. I FIND HIS IDEAS AND DRIVE INTERESTING AND HAVE NO PROBLEM UNDERSTANDING THEM OR SEEING THEM ON THIS FORUM. AS MONTY PHYTHONS FLYING CIRCUS SAID "AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT"!

TO BORROW FROM OTHER FORMS IS THE ONLY CHOICE AS FINDING SOMETHING THAT HAS NEVER BEEN DONE ANYWHERE THAT IS STILL FUNCTIONAL WOULD ALMOST BE IMPOSSIBLE TO DO. PERSONALLY I FIND A PURE JAPANESE FORM MORE ASTHETICALLY PLEASING ,BUT DO FIND IT INTERESTING TO SEE THE KNIFE AND THE IDEAS BEHIND ITS CREATION. THANKS ANTONIO

FOR FUN I WILL NOW CREATE TWO NEW FORMS OF PHILIPPINO MONSTER HEAD BOLO'S

THE FIRST WILL BE FOR REPUBLICANS IT WILL HAVE A BLADE AND SCABBARD SHAPED LIKE A DOLLAR SIGN AND THE MONSTER HEAD WILL BE HILLARY

THE SECOND WILL BE FOR DEMOCRATS ITS BLADE AND SCABBARD WILL BE SHAPPED LIKE A PEACE SIGN AND SAY END THE WAR NOW THE MONSTER HEAD OF COURSE WILL BE GEORGE BUSH.

I HOPE THIS WILL BE TAKEN AS INTENDED AND NOT OFFEND, ITS DIFFICULT TO MAKE POLITICAL JOKES UNLESS YOU ARE JAY LENNO.

I PERSONALLY CONSIDER SWORDS OR FANCY DAGGERS MADE TODAY THAT ARE NOT MADE FOR ACTUAL USE AS ART. THOSE MADE FOR USE ARE MOSTLY TOOLS AND ONLY BECOME WEAPONS NOW IF USED BY THE MILITARY, GANGS OR CRIMINALS. EVEN THOSE USED FOR MARTIAL ART PRACTICE ARE MORE OF A TOOL AS WE DON'T PLAN TO ACTUALLY GO OUT FOR A SWORD FIGHT IN OUR SOCIETY THESE DAYS.

ANTONIO FEEL FREE TO USE THESE DESIGN IF YOU WISH THEY COME FROM MY DEMENTED SCHOOL OF DESIGN

[Montino Bourbon]

Can become either a sign post or a hitching post.

I applaud the making of new forms; I compose music in the new "Indian Maqam" form, a form that arises from both classical and folk traditions, but that has the dynamism of rock 'n roll.

I also treasure the classics of the past, the music that came from millennia ago, and do my part to preserve classics in as much of their pristine original form as I can.

In the words of a song sung by my daughter in third grade:

"Make new friends,
But keep the old;
One is silver,
The other is gold."

Or, as Chairman Mao said:

"Let a hundred flowers bloom, let a thousand schools of thought contend"

[David]

Well Antonio, i am sorry to see that you are choosing to leave what could be a very good discussion. I do think that you have misinterpreted a few of my statement however, so i will respond even if you choose not to.
Firstly i never meant to imply that you were seeking applause. Though i do find it interesting that your first two responses to comments here was just to say "nuff said" as if you weren't interested in hearing any more commentary in this direction.
Secondly, i clearly stated that i am not opposed to hybrids as a rule, it is just that i would like to see them as a logical evolution, not just the whim of the maker to create something new for art's sake only. I think your agrument on the richness of mixed cultures misses the point. When cultures mix, either by immigration or forced diaspora, the resulting cultural fusion and the artifacts which are created by it are part of an organic evolution created by time, place and necessity. Enslaved Africans mix with Spanish culture in Cuba and Rhumba, Son and eventually Latin Jazz are created as expression of a newly formed cultural hybrid. This is not what has happened in the creation of your tanto/kris. For me it is a forced hybrid with no cultural imperative. This doesn't mean it isn't "art", but as a member of the comedy troupe Monty Python once remarked, "I may not know art, but i know what i like".
BTW, I do enjoy much Classical, Jazz and Rock and Roll music and also many of the fusions the exist in between.
Lastly, i also enjoy a good discussion. I am also well aware that many of our favorite weapons are the products of cultural fusions and evolution. These evolutions are generally logical and organic in nature. They don't develop because some local smith wakes up one morning and says hey, what would happen if i combined a scimitar with a kukhri.
As for the evolution of the kris and the keris, my feelings are mixed. It is still possible that the Indonesian keris could be determined to be a still living and therefore evolving blade form. Certainly they do not hold the place in the culture that they once did, but they still serve as family pusaka for many, they are held in esteem in royal regalia, they still serve ceremonial function as in weddings, etc. If you pay attention to the new blades that are being made in Madura and Jawa you will sometimes see new features which could be seen as an evolution in the form. The Moro kris seems more a blade of the past to me. This doesn't mean that it is not still held in some high esteem culturally, but it doesn't seem to still be in high end production like it's Indonesian cousin is. It doesn't seem that there is any need for it to evolve as a blade form.
The bottom line is that you are welcome to find all the inspiration you can in ethnographic weapons and create all the hybrids that seem fit. In fact i encourage you in this. But you must keep in mind that i do not collect ethnographic weapons specifically for a love of metallurgy. It is the culture and history, the myth and the magick of the keris and kris that drive me to collect these wonderful weapons. I have very little interest in custom knife making as a modern art form. Most custom knives do very little for me. I think that this might also be the case for many others involved in ethnographic weapons. So i think that it might be better if you could accept this as a different approach to edged weapons than your own. It doesn't mean i am ignorant of the roots ethnographic sword, nor of Jazz or cultural diversity. I am not trying to discourage you from your journey Antonio. I just have very little interest in it.

[Antonio Cejunior]

David,

Just an exceptional post to clarify a couple of things. I chose you to reply to, but my answer was not directed at you personally.
This being said, and having gone out and come back, I had the time to think about other associations in art, since what differs is my way of expression along with my interaction with Paolo Abrera.
I disagree about the forced hybridization that you mention for various number of reasons which I'll fundament.
1. I had the biggest opportunity to see a large number of swords of all kinds at the HOS exhibition and do allow me the right to be able to assimilate. I did not do it without seeing the real thing. Actually the original design was enriched by Paolo's input. I do know what is the reason for the baca-baca.
2. Cultural hybridization nowadays take much less time with the information society, otherwise any American smith who is doing a Japanese style sword would be subject to your invalidation. Cultural appropriations are, therefore, today of a different level and time.
3. No one objected to the incorporation of distant Japanese culture in paintings by the Impressionists nor organic shapes of Art Nouveau are exempt of Orientalist or even pseudo orientalistic influences. There was no direct contact.
4. Pablo Picasso was never in Africa, but it wasn't less legitimate of him to "take possession" of African masks shapes in his Demoiselles D'Avignon that led to Cubism.

Actually you are obviously entitled to like it or not. I did in fact anticipate what I just wrote above when I said that in the webpage that Then, slowly, hybridation as a cultural process of appropriation, viewed exogenously so as not to be bound by traditions, as too often, too much knowledge becomes to restrictive of creative freedom.

This was already written before the knife was finished.

I understand that once you say I have very little interest in custom knife making as a modern art form you have already blocked any possibility of liking anything because you already carry with you a parti pris.

I do remain open to both ancient and new experimentations. That is why I decided not to discuss. Because there is no discussion possible

Cheers