ANCIENT Indian Weapons (B.C.)

Joe · 7th September 2007, 12:46 AM

These may be akin to what you're looking for, but I don't think that they're quite as ancient as you want.

Jim McDougall · 8th September 2007, 01:21 AM

Those are great Joe!!! Can you say a little on what these are and where you found them. They are pretty interesting examples and I'd like to follow up on them as well.
Thanks for posting them,
All best regards,
Jim

Joe · 8th September 2007, 07:06 AM

Thanks Jim. These two came from Hermann Historia, where they were advertised as being ancient Central Indian two-handers, if I recall correctly.

Unfortunately, I don't know which auction number they were listed in, so I'm having a tough time finding the original listing...

Jim McDougall · 8th September 2007, 07:34 PM

Thank you for checking that Joe. It seems Hermann Historica does often have great pieces in thier catalogs, and lot of good photos. I only received the flyers which were of course understandably brief in descriptions given the limited space.
I found weapons of this type listed in Stone (p.643) as two handed swords used by Rajputs and Mahrattas, and it is noted that the hollow shafts of the hilts often encased small knives. While the hilts on these examples seem to have disc type elements spaced on the long grips, the example shown in Stone features the fluted brass orbs often seen on them.

It seems these are directly associated with similar two hand weapons with spaced guards from the south and termed 'mel puttah bemoh' (Stone p.444, Egerton 134) with long rapier blades and noted to be from 18th century.

These are very interesting and unusual weapons that seem to have influenced the two hand swords of the Naga in Assam, and illustrate the wide diffusion on weaponry on the Subcontinent. They are however indeed far from the period Steven has inquired on.

All the best,
Jim

Joe · 9th September 2007, 12:34 AM

Ah, thanks for the correction Jim. I'd love to see the examples you're talking about in Stone's book, maybe you could send me a pm?

And sorry that I couldn't have been of more help, Stephen. I don't seem to have any references for swords in that half of Asia that were around before 500 BC.

Jim McDougall · 9th September 2007, 03:04 AM

Hi Joe,
Actually the caption was correct and Central India was indeed the region of the weapons you illustrated, I should have clarified that in my post. The same type weapon you posted actually appears in Robert Elgoods "Hindu Arms and Ritual" ( p.94 , 8.51) where he notes that these are actually latter 16th c. to early 17th and from the Deccan in Central India. Perhaps someone who has either of these texts could post illustrations?
Thank you again for posting these, although we have not heard from Steven, I certainly do appreciate your response!
All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 9th September 2007, 04:57 PM

In further examining the descriptions in both Elgood and Stone, it is interesting to note that the swords Joe posted seem closer in form to the mel puttah bemoh (Stone p.444, fig.566) which has a long rapier type blade.
Elgood illustrates one of these swords (p.94, 8.51) and notes a stone image from Virabhadra Temple, Lepakshi (op.cit. p.94, 8.49) that depicts a warrior with a large two handed sword and dating it from the 1530's.

It would seem that these two handed swords were used further back than the example in Stone (dated 18th c.south India attribution ) and the example in Elgood ( shown as Deccani, early 17th c.).

The examples from Hermann Historica appear to be in excavated condition, and the hilt elements quite rudimentary in comparison to the hilts of those shown in Stone and Elgood, which carry a bit more structure. This would suggest that these excavated examples may have been from the earlier period noted by Elgood, and would confirm the use of two handed swords in India into the medieval period.

With these in thier rudimentary form and excavated condition and the examples shown in development in Elgood and Stone, it is interesting to consider not only the use of the two handed sword in India, but the diffusion and development of the form. While that movement seems to be chronologically from the south, into the Deccan and further north with the elaborate Rajput and Mahratta examples more decorative and with the fluted orbs separating the hilts as seen in Stone (p.643 #7) and Elgood (p.95, 8.54), it seems the influence carried into Assam with the Naga two handed dao.

Elgood notes that the two hand form became redundant with the advent of the khanda with basket hilt and projecting spur in the 16th c.

It is always good to have an opportunity to research and discuss the weapons of India and again, I'm glad Joe posted these!

Best regards,
Jim

7th September 2007, 12:46 AM	#1
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	These may be akin to what you're looking for, but I don't think that they're quite as ancient as you want. Attached Images

8th September 2007, 01:21 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Those are great Joe!!! Can you say a little on what these are and where you found them. They are pretty interesting examples and I'd like to follow up on them as well. Thanks for posting them, All best regards, Jim

8th September 2007, 07:06 AM	#3
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Thanks Jim. These two came from Hermann Historia, where they were advertised as being ancient Central Indian two-handers, if I recall correctly. Unfortunately, I don't know which auction number they were listed in, so I'm having a tough time finding the original listing...

8th September 2007, 07:34 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you for checking that Joe. It seems Hermann Historica does often have great pieces in thier catalogs, and lot of good photos. I only received the flyers which were of course understandably brief in descriptions given the limited space. I found weapons of this type listed in Stone (p.643) as two handed swords used by Rajputs and Mahrattas, and it is noted that the hollow shafts of the hilts often encased small knives. While the hilts on these examples seem to have disc type elements spaced on the long grips, the example shown in Stone features the fluted brass orbs often seen on them. It seems these are directly associated with similar two hand weapons with spaced guards from the south and termed 'mel puttah bemoh' (Stone p.444, Egerton 134) with long rapier blades and noted to be from 18th century. These are very interesting and unusual weapons that seem to have influenced the two hand swords of the Naga in Assam, and illustrate the wide diffusion on weaponry on the Subcontinent. They are however indeed far from the period Steven has inquired on. All the best, Jim

9th September 2007, 12:34 AM	#5
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Ah, thanks for the correction Jim. I'd love to see the examples you're talking about in Stone's book, maybe you could send me a pm? And sorry that I couldn't have been of more help, Stephen. I don't seem to have any references for swords in that half of Asia that were around before 500 BC.

9th September 2007, 03:04 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Hi Joe, Actually the caption was correct and Central India was indeed the region of the weapons you illustrated, I should have clarified that in my post. The same type weapon you posted actually appears in Robert Elgoods "Hindu Arms and Ritual" ( p.94 , 8.51) where he notes that these are actually latter 16th c. to early 17th and from the Deccan in Central India. Perhaps someone who has either of these texts could post illustrations? Thank you again for posting these, although we have not heard from Steven, I certainly do appreciate your response! All the best, Jim

9th September 2007, 04:57 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	In further examining the descriptions in both Elgood and Stone, it is interesting to note that the swords Joe posted seem closer in form to the mel puttah bemoh (Stone p.444, fig.566) which has a long rapier type blade. Elgood illustrates one of these swords (p.94, 8.51) and notes a stone image from Virabhadra Temple, Lepakshi (op.cit. p.94, 8.49) that depicts a warrior with a large two handed sword and dating it from the 1530's. It would seem that these two handed swords were used further back than the example in Stone (dated 18th c.south India attribution ) and the example in Elgood ( shown as Deccani, early 17th c.). The examples from Hermann Historica appear to be in excavated condition, and the hilt elements quite rudimentary in comparison to the hilts of those shown in Stone and Elgood, which carry a bit more structure. This would suggest that these excavated examples may have been from the earlier period noted by Elgood, and would confirm the use of two handed swords in India into the medieval period. With these in thier rudimentary form and excavated condition and the examples shown in development in Elgood and Stone, it is interesting to consider not only the use of the two handed sword in India, but the diffusion and development of the form. While that movement seems to be chronologically from the south, into the Deccan and further north with the elaborate Rajput and Mahratta examples more decorative and with the fluted orbs separating the hilts as seen in Stone (p.643 #7) and Elgood (p.95, 8.54), it seems the influence carried into Assam with the Naga two handed dao. Elgood notes that the two hand form became redundant with the advent of the khanda with basket hilt and projecting spur in the 16th c. It is always good to have an opportunity to research and discuss the weapons of India and again, I'm glad Joe posted these! Best regards, Jim