Could this be Indonesian ? or Dutch?

tom hyle · 6th September 2007, 04:16 AM

Nice; is that what it's for? Can we see a fuller pic?
I, BTW, am incapable of posting pics; no idea how it's done, I'm affraid.

kronckew · 6th September 2007, 09:25 AM

hi katana,

it does sound a bit thick for a letter opener, the short shafted pilum that was subject to an earlier dissertation

looks like it can take care of your correspondence instead while we ponder the source of your latest weapon.

the two opposing flats on the integral bolster look interesting, could it be for a wrench or tongs to hold it while inserting it in the grip? hard to tell from a small photo. maybe an x-ray of the tang thru the grip by a co-operative dentist, vet or hospital will shed some light. not loose is it? any indication of how it's stuck on, screwed in, cutlers cement, laha or just fibre wrapped & pushed in like a tombak or keris?

katana · 6th September 2007, 03:02 PM

Hi Kronkew,
there is a small chip out of the handle next to where the metalwork finishes....which reveals a very small gap, inserting a piece of wire I have found that there is a 2mm depth before it hits the 'tang'. The 'chamfered bolster' is 17 mm diameter which suggests that the tang is 13mm (ie 17mm-2mm -2mm) in diameter (assuming it is round). The hilt is solid with no signs of adhesive, pins etc ....so I have no idea how its fixed

The 'flats' are small depressions....perhaps the tang area was heated , held with tongs and 'burned' into the antler

Some school boy calculations seem to suggest that the 'tang' is 7.5 -8.5 cms. The dagger weighs 200 g, as the balance point is at the end of the handle, the hilt end weighs approx 100g, steel is 7.7g per 1cm cubed, assuming the 'tang' is round and 13mm along its length it weighs approx. 70-80g (I think around 20g-30g for the antler... its approx. 1g per 1cm cubed (lets say 100 -20 =80) 77 g would mean 10cm cubed of steel ....which equates to 7.57cm of 13mm diameter 'rod'. There is a fair bit of speculation ..there are alot of 'approximates' ..the tang may even taper, meaning that the tang is even longer.

Hi Tom,
the 'paper knife' is in fact an asparagus knife, which Kronckew correctly ID'ed for me (originally it was 'handle less') Its actually an interesting 'mistake' and seems to be very collectable.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5014

kronckew · 6th September 2007, 03:55 PM

i've found that, barring any distracting ferrous impediments, running a small strong magnet down the grip from the bolster towards the pommel can give you an indication of where a partial tang ends. i sometimes suspend the magnet from a string just above it and move the grip under it, you can detect when the magnetic field 'grabs' and lets go near the tang end. i use a fridge magneted teaspoon

it's got one heck of a strong magnet in a teeny round disk and a hole in the handle.... if the wood or stag is thin enough the magnet may even stick thru it and suspend itself until you slide it past the hidden tang... not very good for finding anything but how long the tang is, but that in itself is a usefull tidbit.

it may be a press fit, or their may be some cement further up the grip cavity holding it in. unless it loosens on its own, it would probably be destructive to mess with it physically, thermally or mechanically. an xray might be informative. might not too. probably not worth the expense....

katana · 6th September 2007, 06:17 PM

Hi Kronckew,
I did try previously to use a magnet....but it is very weak. Antler, I believe is an insulator and would therefor 'weaken' the attraction. Your idea of suspending the magnet is an excellent one

....I will give it a go.

Unfortunately all this detective work has only shown that this is a functional dagger. I think the origins will remain unsolved...never mind...I've grown quite attached to it

katana · 7th September 2007, 12:21 PM

Using a stronger magnet it seems that the 'tang' is 6.5 cm -7 cms ....not far off my 'guess-timate'

So it appears that the tang is solid steel, around 13mm in diameter and approx. 6.5-7 cms long.

Not a usual 'tang' at all.....it MUST be a spearhead, remounted as a dagger.

6th September 2007, 09:25 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	hi katana, it does sound a bit thick for a letter opener, the short shafted pilum that was subject to an earlier dissertation looks like it can take care of your correspondence instead while we ponder the source of your latest weapon. the two opposing flats on the integral bolster look interesting, could it be for a wrench or tongs to hold it while inserting it in the grip? hard to tell from a small photo. maybe an x-ray of the tang thru the grip by a co-operative dentist, vet or hospital will shed some light. not loose is it? any indication of how it's stuck on, screwed in, cutlers cement, laha or just fibre wrapped & pushed in like a tombak or keris? Last edited by kronckew; 6th September 2007 at 09:53 AM.

6th September 2007, 04:16 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Nice; is that what it's for? Can we see a fuller pic? I, BTW, am incapable of posting pics; no idea how it's done, I'm affraid.

6th September 2007, 03:02 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Kronkew, there is a small chip out of the handle next to where the metalwork finishes....which reveals a very small gap, inserting a piece of wire I have found that there is a 2mm depth before it hits the 'tang'. The 'chamfered bolster' is 17 mm diameter which suggests that the tang is 13mm (ie 17mm-2mm -2mm) in diameter (assuming it is round). The hilt is solid with no signs of adhesive, pins etc ....so I have no idea how its fixed The 'flats' are small depressions....perhaps the tang area was heated , held with tongs and 'burned' into the antler Some school boy calculations seem to suggest that the 'tang' is 7.5 -8.5 cms. The dagger weighs 200 g, as the balance point is at the end of the handle, the hilt end weighs approx 100g, steel is 7.7g per 1cm cubed, assuming the 'tang' is round and 13mm along its length it weighs approx. 70-80g (I think around 20g-30g for the antler... its approx. 1g per 1cm cubed (lets say 100 -20 =80) 77 g would mean 10cm cubed of steel ....which equates to 7.57cm of 13mm diameter 'rod'. There is a fair bit of speculation ..there are alot of 'approximates' ..the tang may even taper, meaning that the tang is even longer. Hi Tom, the 'paper knife' is in fact an asparagus knife, which Kronckew correctly ID'ed for me (originally it was 'handle less') Its actually an interesting 'mistake' and seems to be very collectable. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5014

6th September 2007, 03:55 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	i've found that, barring any distracting ferrous impediments, running a small strong magnet down the grip from the bolster towards the pommel can give you an indication of where a partial tang ends. i sometimes suspend the magnet from a string just above it and move the grip under it, you can detect when the magnetic field 'grabs' and lets go near the tang end. i use a fridge magneted teaspoon it's got one heck of a strong magnet in a teeny round disk and a hole in the handle.... if the wood or stag is thin enough the magnet may even stick thru it and suspend itself until you slide it past the hidden tang... not very good for finding anything but how long the tang is, but that in itself is a usefull tidbit. it may be a press fit, or their may be some cement further up the grip cavity holding it in. unless it loosens on its own, it would probably be destructive to mess with it physically, thermally or mechanically. an xray might be informative. might not too. probably not worth the expense....

6th September 2007, 06:17 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Kronckew, I did try previously to use a magnet....but it is very weak. Antler, I believe is an insulator and would therefor 'weaken' the attraction. Your idea of suspending the magnet is an excellent one ....I will give it a go. Unfortunately all this detective work has only shown that this is a functional dagger. I think the origins will remain unsolved...never mind...I've grown quite attached to it

7th September 2007, 12:21 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Using a stronger magnet it seems that the 'tang' is 6.5 cm -7 cms ....not far off my 'guess-timate' So it appears that the tang is solid steel, around 13mm in diameter and approx. 6.5-7 cms long. Not a usual 'tang' at all.....it MUST be a spearhead, remounted as a dagger.