Angle between ganja and pesi

Rick · 3rd September 2007, 09:10 PM

Hi Michel, I'm not too sure what you mean by angle in this case .

This first example I've posted seems to be pretty much at a 90 degree angle to the ganja.

Or do you mean the attitude or angle the keris blade assumes when dressed as shown in the second picture ?

Rick

Michel · 3rd September 2007, 09:52 PM

Hi Rick,
Thanks for your answer. There are two angles to consider:
The first that you mentioned with your first picture: is not 90°. It is systematically slightly off 90°.
The second is the clearly seen on your second picture : If you prolonged the Axe of the ganja you have clear angle with the Axe of the blade.
I have read something somewhere, but can't remember where and it was linked to fighting with keris. I do not believe very much in the fighting abilities of the keris and think that many of its Subtleties are derived from other reasons. But one never knows !
I am ready to listen to any valid explanation
Thanks, regards,
Michel

Rick · 3rd September 2007, 10:24 PM

Hi Michel, I was told by one of our members that this attitude of the blade is called Condong Leleh and that it relates to the gesture of sembah.

Perhaps our fellow member could comment on this as I do not wish to simply parrot information given to me by others.

Rick

drdavid · 3rd September 2007, 10:50 PM

This is just a theory based on biomechanics (part of what I do in my day job) and I am sure that there are symbolic meanings for the angle as well but here goes:
if you look at a fencing foil (it is probably the best example of a thrusting weapon still in use) you will find that the hilt is generally slightly angled as well, I cannot remember the angle but it is not great perhaps 15 degrees downwards. This angle allows the wrist to sit in a position where thumb, wrist and forearm form a straight line when the blade is pointing directly forwards (horizontal to the ground). Hence in a thrust/lunge you have the wrist in the most stable position at impact transferring the load up the forearm rather than through the wrist, you gain a couple of centimetres in elongation and you hit with the point directly forwards. The angle also allows you to have a handle/hilt that sits well in the palm or in the case of a foil allows you to use a pistol grip. Please feel free to pull this theory apart.
cheers
DrD

Rick · 3rd September 2007, 10:58 PM

I think you've hit the biomechanics nail right on the head .

A. G. Maisey · 4th September 2007, 01:44 AM

There are actually a couple of angles involved here.
There is the angle that is formed by the base of the blade with the pesi, without the gonjo, and there is the form of the top of the gonjo.
Where the thickness of the gonjo stays the same on each side of the pesi, the angle of gonjo to pesi will remain the same as the angle of blade base to pesi.

The angle of pesi to the blade base in a modern keris varies from the angle of pesi to blade base in the keris buda. I proposed the idea some time ago that this variation occurred because of a basic difference in the way in which the keris buda, and its forebears, was held, and the way in which a modern keris was held. The keris buda was held in a way that allowed a strong downwards stabbing action to be used; the modern keris is held in a fencing grip that favours a thrust.

I think that you will find the angles of pesi to blade axis set out in my "Origin" paper.

The related angle, or perhaps more correctly, "form" is the form of the top of the gonjo. This form dictates the form of the top of the wrongko, and the form of the top of the wrongko is probably dictated by stylistic convention from era to era.This stylistic convention flows on to the desired appearance of the keris when worn.Maybe this becomes a "chicken & egg" question. Did the court stylists first determine thay wanted a larger curve and a more flamboyant wrongko, or did the court empus first decide that a more highly curved gonjo looked sexier?Or did they all work together to decide this direction?

In the making of a keris, this angle of the pesi to the blade axis is determined by measuring the keris bakalan against a grid and setting the place on the bakalan for the point, and the place on the bakalan for the centre of the pesi; once these two points are set, the line for the base of the blade can be established. It is not a haphazard thing done by measuring with the eye, it is really done with a great deal of precision.

RobT · 4th September 2007, 02:50 AM

Hi all,
Perhaps the angle was originally designed to incline the point toward the target when the blade was held at the side. The angle doesn't seem significant but it might have been sufficient to increase the chances of success. If what I propose is correct then the the angle parameters would be governed by the amount of inclination needed to keep the point on target during the thrust and limited by the amount of inclination that would cause the wrist to bend on impact. Perhaps the aesthetic evaluations derived from these mechanical necessities.
Sincerely,
RobT

ganjawulung · 4th September 2007, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Michel, I was told by one of our members that this attitude of the blade is called Condong Leleh and that it relates to the gesture of sembah.

Hi Michel,
I had an experience with the late Empu Djeno in Jogjakarta, in 1996. (It related to Rick's comment on "condong leleh", that I think Rick is right). At that time, I asked Empu Djeno to participate in our Tosan Aji (including keris) Exhibition in Bentara Budaya Jakarta August 1996, but he refused it because he felt too old (67 years old at that time) to leave his house in Moyudan, Gatak, Sleman Jogjakarta just to come to an exhibiton in Jakarta.

He told me that he was very proud in the past, because the late Sultan Hamengku Buwono (HB) IX had commissioned two kerises to him. One with dhapur "jangkung mangkunagoro" (three luks) in 1984, and "sinom tuding" (straight keris with sekar kacang, with very sharp point called "nyujen") in 1985.

On "condong leleh", according to Empu Djeno, HB IX had different bow with his predecessors, HB VII which was to straight, and HB VIII that was too bow... HB IX, according to Mr Djeno, chose in between (bow) of the two predecessors. Of course, HB IX didn't tell Mr Djeno, why this Jogja sultan asked him to do the commissioned kerises like that. But in the interpretation of Empu Djeno, the "condong leleh" showed the attitude of the gentlemen (who commissioned the keris) toward the society, or the environtment surround him. HB IX was too "straight" against the dutch colonial, and HB VIII too "bow" to the dutch authority...

This is just my simple sharing to you, Michel...

Ganjawulungt

Michel · 4th September 2007, 04:16 PM

Gentlemen,
Thank you for sharing these interesting explanations.
They are diverse and sometime complementary. I will retain that:
- there are biomechanical reasons related to the fighting use of the keris,that explains the angle between the pesi and the the blade. The angle I have measured on the images in "Keris Jawa antara mistic dan nalar" is 10°
- This angle is not there for esthetical reasons but for the previously mentioned biomechanical one and is built very precisely. There I must acknowledge my ignorance of the word "bakalan" and as result, I do not understand fully Alan's explanation. (sorry Alan my Dictionary has not yet arrived).
- The angle between the pesi and the ganja is the result of the difference of thickness of the ganja, of the position of the pesi on the width of the blade and of the previous angle. This position is precisely given by the "bakalan" and a grid utilized by empu and keris makers. I will find more on this in Alan's paper:"origin of the Keris"
-If there is also a symbolic reason to the first angle (humbleness ?) the second angle seems to be there only as the result of the above given reasons.

I am in the middle of a keris patrem forging and it seems that I will miss the exact positioning of the pesi on the blade as I did not know of the "bakalan" question. I think I can get the right angle , but my pesi will be a bit out placed. I guess I will have to live with that.
A final question: what is the thickness of the ganja ? is there a rule or can I make it just esthetically ?
Thanks to all for all these informations
Regards
Michel

lemmythesmith · 4th September 2007, 09:35 PM

Hi Michel, I'm in the middle of building a patrem as well and I did the exact same thing with the pesi as you have, now the ukiran is made it looks better, you don't seem to see the "wrong" angle and placement as much! Have you laminated the blade and if so what metals/number of layers have you used?

A. G. Maisey · 4th September 2007, 11:04 PM

A bakalan/calonan is a forging.There is a difference in the two words in Indonesian, but in English "forging" covers both. Go here:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/PBXIIempus.html

scroll to the bottom of the page and you will see what a keris forging should look like before it is carved.

The angle between the pesi and the ganja can vary because of difference in thickness of the ganja on each side of the pesi, but in making the keris, the important thing is the angle of the blade relevant to the blade base.

Before you start to make the keris you must make a pattern. You can draw this if you are a good artist, or you can use a suitable old blade and trace the outline.This pattern will establish the overall form and angles of the blade. To set the angle of the blade you take a line through the centre of the pesi and extend it past the point, you establish an angle of 90 degrees between the blade base and this line, in a normal sized keris of Surakarta style the point must fall between 5 and 6 cm. from the line.You cut your pattern to agree with the angle you have established, but you leave the top of the pattern above the blade base, uncut. You then draw the ganja that you want in its place. When you have drawn the ganja you may find that some slight adjustments to angles are required for aesthetic reasons. You make these adjustments. When you are satisfied with the form of the pattern, you complete cutting it to shape, and you are ready to begin forging your keris to shape. It can help if you make a couple of copies of the pattern and glue one of them to a piece of light flat iron. This will allow you to constantly check as you forge.

The thickness of the ganja is an aesthetic consideration, but generally speaking, a blade with a thick ganja is regarded as artistically superior to one with a thin ganja, but bear in mind, one must have the experience to judge what is acceptable within the given parameters.You cannot just make "a ganja". You need to make the ganja to the correct form to suit the style of keris that you are making, and this style of keris needs to be governed by the parameters set by tangguh. If one does not understand tangguh it is probably best to find a blade that is pleasing to one's eye and copy that blade, or at least, use it for a guide. It is very, very difficult to make an accurate copy of a blade, but it is not so difficult to use a blade as a guide to help in establishing the forms that will appear in the finished blade.

If the keris being made is not of a normal size, the angle can be established by scaling against that applicable to a normal keris, however, after this scaling has been done, it is virtually certain that adjustments to angle will be required.

As a very broad aesthetic guide to the final visual impression that will be created by the keris, it should reflect the character, personality and perhaps physical build of the person it is being made for.However, this interpretation must be made within the parameters permitted by the style of the keris.

3rd September 2007, 09:10 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hi Michel, I'm not too sure what you mean by angle in this case . This first example I've posted seems to be pretty much at a 90 degree angle to the ganja. Or do you mean the attitude or angle the keris blade assumes when dressed as shown in the second picture ? Rick Attached Images

4th September 2007, 02:50 AM	#7
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	angled to target? Hi all, Perhaps the angle was originally designed to incline the point toward the target when the blade was held at the side. The angle doesn't seem significant but it might have been sufficient to increase the chances of success. If what I propose is correct then the the angle parameters would be governed by the amount of inclination needed to keep the point on target during the thrust and limited by the amount of inclination that would cause the wrist to bend on impact. Perhaps the aesthetic evaluations derived from these mechanical necessities. Sincerely, RobT

4th September 2007, 04:16 PM	#9
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	the right angle Gentlemen, Thank you for sharing these interesting explanations. They are diverse and sometime complementary. I will retain that: - there are biomechanical reasons related to the fighting use of the keris,that explains the angle between the pesi and the the blade. The angle I have measured on the images in "Keris Jawa antara mistic dan nalar" is 10° - This angle is not there for esthetical reasons but for the previously mentioned biomechanical one and is built very precisely. There I must acknowledge my ignorance of the word "bakalan" and as result, I do not understand fully Alan's explanation. (sorry Alan my Dictionary has not yet arrived). - The angle between the pesi and the ganja is the result of the difference of thickness of the ganja, of the position of the pesi on the width of the blade and of the previous angle. This position is precisely given by the "bakalan" and a grid utilized by empu and keris makers. I will find more on this in Alan's paper:"origin of the Keris" -If there is also a symbolic reason to the first angle (humbleness ?) the second angle seems to be there only as the result of the above given reasons. I am in the middle of a keris patrem forging and it seems that I will miss the exact positioning of the pesi on the blade as I did not know of the "bakalan" question. I think I can get the right angle , but my pesi will be a bit out placed. I guess I will have to live with that. A final question: what is the thickness of the ganja ? is there a rule or can I make it just esthetically ? Thanks to all for all these informations Regards Michel Attached Images

3rd September 2007, 09:52 PM	#2
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Hi Rick, Thanks for your answer. There are two angles to consider: The first that you mentioned with your first picture: is not 90°. It is systematically slightly off 90°. The second is the clearly seen on your second picture : If you prolonged the Axe of the ganja you have clear angle with the Axe of the blade. I have read something somewhere, but can't remember where and it was linked to fighting with keris. I do not believe very much in the fighting abilities of the keris and think that many of its Subtleties are derived from other reasons. But one never knows ! I am ready to listen to any valid explanation Thanks, regards, Michel

3rd September 2007, 10:24 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hi Michel, I was told by one of our members that this attitude of the blade is called Condong Leleh and that it relates to the gesture of sembah. Perhaps our fellow member could comment on this as I do not wish to simply parrot information given to me by others. Rick

3rd September 2007, 10:50 PM	#4
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	This is just a theory based on biomechanics (part of what I do in my day job) and I am sure that there are symbolic meanings for the angle as well but here goes: if you look at a fencing foil (it is probably the best example of a thrusting weapon still in use) you will find that the hilt is generally slightly angled as well, I cannot remember the angle but it is not great perhaps 15 degrees downwards. This angle allows the wrist to sit in a position where thumb, wrist and forearm form a straight line when the blade is pointing directly forwards (horizontal to the ground). Hence in a thrust/lunge you have the wrist in the most stable position at impact transferring the load up the forearm rather than through the wrist, you gain a couple of centimetres in elongation and you hit with the point directly forwards. The angle also allows you to have a handle/hilt that sits well in the palm or in the case of a foil allows you to use a pistol grip. Please feel free to pull this theory apart. cheers DrD

3rd September 2007, 10:58 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I think you've hit the biomechanics nail right on the head .

4th September 2007, 01:44 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	There are actually a couple of angles involved here. There is the angle that is formed by the base of the blade with the pesi, without the gonjo, and there is the form of the top of the gonjo. Where the thickness of the gonjo stays the same on each side of the pesi, the angle of gonjo to pesi will remain the same as the angle of blade base to pesi. The angle of pesi to the blade base in a modern keris varies from the angle of pesi to blade base in the keris buda. I proposed the idea some time ago that this variation occurred because of a basic difference in the way in which the keris buda, and its forebears, was held, and the way in which a modern keris was held. The keris buda was held in a way that allowed a strong downwards stabbing action to be used; the modern keris is held in a fencing grip that favours a thrust. I think that you will find the angles of pesi to blade axis set out in my "Origin" paper. The related angle, or perhaps more correctly, "form" is the form of the top of the gonjo. This form dictates the form of the top of the wrongko, and the form of the top of the wrongko is probably dictated by stylistic convention from era to era.This stylistic convention flows on to the desired appearance of the keris when worn.Maybe this becomes a "chicken & egg" question. Did the court stylists first determine thay wanted a larger curve and a more flamboyant wrongko, or did the court empus first decide that a more highly curved gonjo looked sexier?Or did they all work together to decide this direction? In the making of a keris, this angle of the pesi to the blade axis is determined by measuring the keris bakalan against a grid and setting the place on the bakalan for the point, and the place on the bakalan for the centre of the pesi; once these two points are set, the line for the base of the blade can be established. It is not a haphazard thing done by measuring with the eye, it is really done with a great deal of precision.

4th September 2007, 09:35 PM	#10
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Michel, I'm in the middle of building a patrem as well and I did the exact same thing with the pesi as you have, now the ukiran is made it looks better, you don't seem to see the "wrong" angle and placement as much! Have you laminated the blade and if so what metals/number of layers have you used?

4th September 2007, 11:04 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	A bakalan/calonan is a forging.There is a difference in the two words in Indonesian, but in English "forging" covers both. Go here:- http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/PBXIIempus.html scroll to the bottom of the page and you will see what a keris forging should look like before it is carved. The angle between the pesi and the ganja can vary because of difference in thickness of the ganja on each side of the pesi, but in making the keris, the important thing is the angle of the blade relevant to the blade base. Before you start to make the keris you must make a pattern. You can draw this if you are a good artist, or you can use a suitable old blade and trace the outline.This pattern will establish the overall form and angles of the blade. To set the angle of the blade you take a line through the centre of the pesi and extend it past the point, you establish an angle of 90 degrees between the blade base and this line, in a normal sized keris of Surakarta style the point must fall between 5 and 6 cm. from the line.You cut your pattern to agree with the angle you have established, but you leave the top of the pattern above the blade base, uncut. You then draw the ganja that you want in its place. When you have drawn the ganja you may find that some slight adjustments to angles are required for aesthetic reasons. You make these adjustments. When you are satisfied with the form of the pattern, you complete cutting it to shape, and you are ready to begin forging your keris to shape. It can help if you make a couple of copies of the pattern and glue one of them to a piece of light flat iron. This will allow you to constantly check as you forge. The thickness of the ganja is an aesthetic consideration, but generally speaking, a blade with a thick ganja is regarded as artistically superior to one with a thin ganja, but bear in mind, one must have the experience to judge what is acceptable within the given parameters.You cannot just make "a ganja". You need to make the ganja to the correct form to suit the style of keris that you are making, and this style of keris needs to be governed by the parameters set by tangguh. If one does not understand tangguh it is probably best to find a blade that is pleasing to one's eye and copy that blade, or at least, use it for a guide. It is very, very difficult to make an accurate copy of a blade, but it is not so difficult to use a blade as a guide to help in establishing the forms that will appear in the finished blade. If the keris being made is not of a normal size, the angle can be established by scaling against that applicable to a normal keris, however, after this scaling has been done, it is virtually certain that adjustments to angle will be required. As a very broad aesthetic guide to the final visual impression that will be created by the keris, it should reflect the character, personality and perhaps physical build of the person it is being made for.However, this interpretation must be made within the parameters permitted by the style of the keris.