Could this be Indonesian ? or Dutch?

tom hyle · 1st September 2007, 04:15 PM

No, and for at least two reasons, each equally valid.
A/ if it is not a tombak per se with no metuk that goes a long way from saying there are not such spears, perhaps by a different name, in Indonesia, and {([I think this was B;.......])} in fact I have seen such blades, which had either lost, or never had a drawn on bolster (likewis for kris, BTW); so, as with what I'd already said about budiak, defining the term in a tightly constrained manner may be unhelpful in this particular discussion.
B? Snap, I forgot B, and your post isn';t showing in the bit I can read below. Maybe I somehow included B in A; I don't know; lost track of the thought.....

Additional: I have a reason it is not a budiak (broadly construed, etc.). Budiaks AFAIK have rhomboid (ie. diamond) cross section. This blade is midribbed, at least a the base, with a wide, semicircular rib, like a tombak.
It appears to be a tombak, mounted as a dagger. They often are.
Just for reference, the Thai(?) spear I mentioned is one of the leaf-bladed ones; one inch thick at the blade base, and with a 14" tang

love, spear, love

David · 1st September 2007, 04:48 PM

Tom, i didn't say it wasn't from Indonesia, just that it isn't a tombak. I never said that there aren't such spears there by a different name.
If you have a photo of a tombak without a metuk i would love to see it. I am always open to having my mind changed.

katana · 4th September 2007, 11:28 AM

Thank you Tom and David for the further posts

personally I am convinced that this is a re-mounted spear head and almost certainly of SEA origins, whether this was hilted (or even re-hilted) in Europe is another story. I have been unable to find a similar dagger described as European ....all the examples I have found (with very similar features to my own) have been attributed to SEA (some with pamor... most without)
The 'balance' and solid construction seems to suggest that this dagger was made with care for a purely functional use....to stab. I have considered this to be a 'hunting dirk' but it really does not fit the 'profile'.

I suppose, with weapons that are not readily easy to ID, you have to weigh up the comments of others, your own knowledge and the 'feel' of the weapon in question.....until proved otherwise.

kronckew · 5th September 2007, 01:25 PM

are we letting our own hopes and experiences keep us from thinking outside our 'box'?

some pretty letter openers out there. saw a nice victorian one with a stag grip on ebay recently

katana · 5th September 2007, 07:27 PM

I take your point kronckew...we should all think 'out of the box'......but this is no paper knife....mid rib is 7mm distally tapered to 3mm just before the tip. It's too heavy duty both in weight and construction at approx. 34cms long (9cms (3 3/4") longer than the longest length stated in the posted examples) it would be 'cumbersome' and the blade perhaps a little thick for effective 'envelope opening'.

I take your point about the overall shape of the paper knife blades...but the design (being symmetrical) allows use by either right or left 'handers'. The blade on mine has a very heavy 'tang', as mentioned before, as the balance point is where blade meets handle. A paper knife likely would have a 'weedy' rat tail or half tang fixed by adhesive 'resin'.

As usual (with knives I am not certain about) I 'tested' this dagger on various thicknesses of ply wood to assertain strengh and 'penetration'. This easily holes 3/8" ply and the point is visible on 1/2" with no damage to the knife at all. I am certain that a paper knife would not perform as well. Spark testing the blade shows high carbon content and is not 'stainless steel' which the majority of paper knives would be (to prevent rust marks on your letters, and no oil marks either from a knife with a properly maintained carbon blade)

Any way I've already got a paper knife in my collection

Regards David

tom hyle · 6th September 2007, 04:16 AM

Nice; is that what it's for? Can we see a fuller pic?
I, BTW, am incapable of posting pics; no idea how it's done, I'm affraid.

kronckew · 6th September 2007, 09:25 AM

hi katana,

it does sound a bit thick for a letter opener, the short shafted pilum that was subject to an earlier dissertation

looks like it can take care of your correspondence instead while we ponder the source of your latest weapon.

the two opposing flats on the integral bolster look interesting, could it be for a wrench or tongs to hold it while inserting it in the grip? hard to tell from a small photo. maybe an x-ray of the tang thru the grip by a co-operative dentist, vet or hospital will shed some light. not loose is it? any indication of how it's stuck on, screwed in, cutlers cement, laha or just fibre wrapped & pushed in like a tombak or keris?

5th September 2007, 07:27 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I take your point kronckew...we should all think 'out of the box'......but this is no paper knife....mid rib is 7mm distally tapered to 3mm just before the tip. It's too heavy duty both in weight and construction at approx. 34cms long (9cms (3 3/4") longer than the longest length stated in the posted examples) it would be 'cumbersome' and the blade perhaps a little thick for effective 'envelope opening'. I take your point about the overall shape of the paper knife blades...but the design (being symmetrical) allows use by either right or left 'handers'. The blade on mine has a very heavy 'tang', as mentioned before, as the balance point is where blade meets handle. A paper knife likely would have a 'weedy' rat tail or half tang fixed by adhesive 'resin'. As usual (with knives I am not certain about) I 'tested' this dagger on various thicknesses of ply wood to assertain strengh and 'penetration'. This easily holes 3/8" ply and the point is visible on 1/2" with no damage to the knife at all. I am certain that a paper knife would not perform as well. Spark testing the blade shows high carbon content and is not 'stainless steel' which the majority of paper knives would be (to prevent rust marks on your letters, and no oil marks either from a knife with a properly maintained carbon blade) Any way I've already got a paper knife in my collection Regards David Attached Images Last edited by katana; 5th September 2007 at 07:46 PM.

6th September 2007, 09:25 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	hi katana, it does sound a bit thick for a letter opener, the short shafted pilum that was subject to an earlier dissertation looks like it can take care of your correspondence instead while we ponder the source of your latest weapon. the two opposing flats on the integral bolster look interesting, could it be for a wrench or tongs to hold it while inserting it in the grip? hard to tell from a small photo. maybe an x-ray of the tang thru the grip by a co-operative dentist, vet or hospital will shed some light. not loose is it? any indication of how it's stuck on, screwed in, cutlers cement, laha or just fibre wrapped & pushed in like a tombak or keris? Last edited by kronckew; 6th September 2007 at 09:53 AM.

1st September 2007, 04:15 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	No, and for at least two reasons, each equally valid. A/ if it is not a tombak per se with no metuk that goes a long way from saying there are not such spears, perhaps by a different name, in Indonesia, and {([I think this was B;.......])} in fact I have seen such blades, which had either lost, or never had a drawn on bolster (likewis for kris, BTW); so, as with what I'd already said about budiak, defining the term in a tightly constrained manner may be unhelpful in this particular discussion. B? Snap, I forgot B, and your post isn';t showing in the bit I can read below. Maybe I somehow included B in A; I don't know; lost track of the thought..... Additional: I have a reason it is not a budiak (broadly construed, etc.). Budiaks AFAIK have rhomboid (ie. diamond) cross section. This blade is midribbed, at least a the base, with a wide, semicircular rib, like a tombak. It appears to be a tombak, mounted as a dagger. They often are. Just for reference, the Thai(?) spear I mentioned is one of the leaf-bladed ones; one inch thick at the blade base, and with a 14" tang love, spear, love

1st September 2007, 04:48 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Tom, i didn't say it wasn't from Indonesia, just that it isn't a tombak. I never said that there aren't such spears there by a different name. If you have a photo of a tombak without a metuk i would love to see it. I am always open to having my mind changed.

4th September 2007, 11:28 AM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you Tom and David for the further posts personally I am convinced that this is a re-mounted spear head and almost certainly of SEA origins, whether this was hilted (or even re-hilted) in Europe is another story. I have been unable to find a similar dagger described as European ....all the examples I have found (with very similar features to my own) have been attributed to SEA (some with pamor... most without) The 'balance' and solid construction seems to suggest that this dagger was made with care for a purely functional use....to stab. I have considered this to be a 'hunting dirk' but it really does not fit the 'profile'. I suppose, with weapons that are not readily easy to ID, you have to weigh up the comments of others, your own knowledge and the 'feel' of the weapon in question.....until proved otherwise.

5th September 2007, 01:25 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	are we letting our own hopes and experiences keep us from thinking outside our 'box'? some pretty letter openers out there. saw a nice victorian one with a stag grip on ebay recently

6th September 2007, 04:16 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Nice; is that what it's for? Can we see a fuller pic? I, BTW, am incapable of posting pics; no idea how it's done, I'm affraid.