Club from the Philippines

Nonoy Tan · 29th August 2007, 11:33 AM

There is reference to clubs being used in the Philippines ("The collection of primitive weapons and armor of the Philippine islands in the United States National museum" by Herbert Krieger 1926). However, there is no image of a club therein; and I found no club amongst the specimens kept at the Smithsonian Institution. Thus, information has been elusive.

Here is a close-up pic
[IMG]

Tim Simmons · 29th August 2007, 05:36 PM

Perhaps it is from South America. It must be the first piece I have seen on this forum not including colonists work. It would not get a patina like that without use. What size is it? Some "Oceanic" clubs are sometimes fish clubs or priest, for bigger fish than trout or salmon. I believe the club is/was the main weapon of Brazilian native people? I did see an old metal tipped spear, 18th century, in a special exhibition at BM a few years ago. Wish I had bought the catalogue now. Trade steel obviously. I had no idea of the sophistcation of the native cities in the Amazon basin.

fearn · 29th August 2007, 06:25 PM

Hi All,

As a botanist, I'm pretty that the spikes are natural, and I'm pretty sure it's not from the silk floss tree. There's a simple reason for this: silk floss wood is quite light. I've picked up a trunk that was two meters long and 10 cm wide, and it only weighed a kilo or two. While the spikes on silk trunks are impressive, the wood behind them isn't.

Now, I'm not sure what plant it's from, but my first guess was rattan as well. A cross-sectional view of the butt end might help, as it will show whether the club was made from a palm or a broadleaf tree.

F

VANDOO · 29th August 2007, 08:19 PM

I WILL AGREE THE SPIKES ARE NATURAL TO THE PLANT, THE TYPES OF RATTAN I AM FAMILIAR WITH ARE ALSO LIGHT WEIGHT AND WOULD MAKE A POOR CLUB.
A CLUB SHOULD BE HARD AND HAVE ENOUGH WEIGHT TO BREAK SKULLS AND BONES OR AT LEAST KNOCK OUT AN ENEMY. THE PRESENCE OF SPINES WOULD MAKE A WEAPON LOOK MORE DANGEROUS BUT IF IT WAS TOO LIGHT TO PREFORM A CLUBS MAIN FUNCTIONS IT WOULD JUST MAKE MORE BLOOD BUT BE LESS EFFECIENT.
THERE ARE MANY FORMS OF PLANTS WITH THORNS ALL OVER THE WORLD AS PLANTS DEVELOPED SHARP POINTY SPINES AND SHARP EDGES FOR PROTECTION LONG BEFORE MANKIND CAME ALONG. PLANTS HAVE PROVIDED WEAPONS AND TOOLS SINCE ANCIENT TIMES WE HAVE USED THE THORNS,SPINES AND POISONS IN MOST SOCIETYS.

THE QUESTION WOULD BE IS THE PHILIPPINE CLUB HARD AND HEAVY ENOUGH OR ARE THE SPINES NATURALLY POSINOUS?

CourseEight · 29th August 2007, 08:50 PM

According to Wikipedia, the wood density of a floss silk is 0.27 g/cm^3. Though no dimensions are given, figuring the club to be about 1 m long and 5 cm in diameter based on the pictures, and figuring it to be a cylinder, would give it a weight of 0.27*100*2.5^2*pi = 530 g, agreeing with fearn rather light for a club, yes? Of course, if poison is used all bets are off, and if Tim's suggestion that it may be South American is true, the natives there do certainly use poisons on their darts. Of course, they do in the Phillipines too I think. Dimensions, weight, and a picture of the cross section WOULD certainly help. I was unable to find a wood density for young spiny rattan...

RSWORD · 29th August 2007, 10:21 PM

Too light for a war club but perhaps just right for a fish whomper.

fearn · 30th August 2007, 01:13 AM

Hi RSword,

I'd respectfully disagree.

1. Force increases directly with mass, but as the square of speed. Heavy is good, but (within limits) there is a beneficial tradeoff between speed and weight. While I'm all in favor of heavy wooden clubs, I wouldn't count this one out just because it wasn't, say, ebony or ironwood.

B. Those spikes concentrate the force somewhat.

III. Fish (generally) have smaller brains than most people, meaning that you need to really whack them over the head to kill them. People, on the other hand, have thin skins, and getting tattooed with a spiked club (especially a number of times) could end a fight, even if it didn't break bones.

I'd guess it's a person-whacker, not a fish-whomper.

As for poison, my guess is that it's not poisonous. The reason is that whoever made it peeled the bark away for the grip. In many plants, that would bare a large area containing poisonous sap right where the hand of the owner went. If one blister or cut would mean that you got poisoned by your own weapon, I'd bet that they'd wrap the grip pretty thoroughly. It doesn't look like they've done it here.

My 0.02 cents.

F

29th August 2007, 11:33 AM	#1
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	There is reference to clubs being used in the Philippines ("The collection of primitive weapons and armor of the Philippine islands in the United States National museum" by Herbert Krieger 1926). However, there is no image of a club therein; and I found no club amongst the specimens kept at the Smithsonian Institution. Thus, information has been elusive. Here is a close-up pic [IMG] Attached Images

29th August 2007, 05:36 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Perhaps it is from South America. It must be the first piece I have seen on this forum not including colonists work. It would not get a patina like that without use. What size is it? Some "Oceanic" clubs are sometimes fish clubs or priest, for bigger fish than trout or salmon. I believe the club is/was the main weapon of Brazilian native people? I did see an old metal tipped spear, 18th century, in a special exhibition at BM a few years ago. Wish I had bought the catalogue now. Trade steel obviously. I had no idea of the sophistcation of the native cities in the Amazon basin.

29th August 2007, 06:25 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, As a botanist, I'm pretty that the spikes are natural, and I'm pretty sure it's not from the silk floss tree. There's a simple reason for this: silk floss wood is quite light. I've picked up a trunk that was two meters long and 10 cm wide, and it only weighed a kilo or two. While the spikes on silk trunks are impressive, the wood behind them isn't. Now, I'm not sure what plant it's from, but my first guess was rattan as well. A cross-sectional view of the butt end might help, as it will show whether the club was made from a palm or a broadleaf tree. F

29th August 2007, 08:19 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WILL AGREE THE SPIKES ARE NATURAL TO THE PLANT, THE TYPES OF RATTAN I AM FAMILIAR WITH ARE ALSO LIGHT WEIGHT AND WOULD MAKE A POOR CLUB. A CLUB SHOULD BE HARD AND HAVE ENOUGH WEIGHT TO BREAK SKULLS AND BONES OR AT LEAST KNOCK OUT AN ENEMY. THE PRESENCE OF SPINES WOULD MAKE A WEAPON LOOK MORE DANGEROUS BUT IF IT WAS TOO LIGHT TO PREFORM A CLUBS MAIN FUNCTIONS IT WOULD JUST MAKE MORE BLOOD BUT BE LESS EFFECIENT. THERE ARE MANY FORMS OF PLANTS WITH THORNS ALL OVER THE WORLD AS PLANTS DEVELOPED SHARP POINTY SPINES AND SHARP EDGES FOR PROTECTION LONG BEFORE MANKIND CAME ALONG. PLANTS HAVE PROVIDED WEAPONS AND TOOLS SINCE ANCIENT TIMES WE HAVE USED THE THORNS,SPINES AND POISONS IN MOST SOCIETYS. THE QUESTION WOULD BE IS THE PHILIPPINE CLUB HARD AND HEAVY ENOUGH OR ARE THE SPINES NATURALLY POSINOUS?

29th August 2007, 08:50 PM	#5
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	According to Wikipedia, the wood density of a floss silk is 0.27 g/cm^3. Though no dimensions are given, figuring the club to be about 1 m long and 5 cm in diameter based on the pictures, and figuring it to be a cylinder, would give it a weight of 0.271002.5^2*pi = 530 g, agreeing with fearn rather light for a club, yes? Of course, if poison is used all bets are off, and if Tim's suggestion that it may be South American is true, the natives there do certainly use poisons on their darts. Of course, they do in the Phillipines too I think. Dimensions, weight, and a picture of the cross section WOULD certainly help. I was unable to find a wood density for young spiny rattan...

29th August 2007, 10:21 PM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Too light for a war club but perhaps just right for a fish whomper.

30th August 2007, 01:13 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi RSword, I'd respectfully disagree. 1. Force increases directly with mass, but as the square of speed. Heavy is good, but (within limits) there is a beneficial tradeoff between speed and weight. While I'm all in favor of heavy wooden clubs, I wouldn't count this one out just because it wasn't, say, ebony or ironwood. B. Those spikes concentrate the force somewhat. III. Fish (generally) have smaller brains than most people, meaning that you need to really whack them over the head to kill them. People, on the other hand, have thin skins, and getting tattooed with a spiked club (especially a number of times) could end a fight, even if it didn't break bones. I'd guess it's a person-whacker, not a fish-whomper. As for poison, my guess is that it's not poisonous. The reason is that whoever made it peeled the bark away for the grip. In many plants, that would bare a large area containing poisonous sap right where the hand of the owner went. If one blister or cut would mean that you got poisoned by your own weapon, I'd bet that they'd wrap the grip pretty thoroughly. It doesn't look like they've done it here. My 0.02 cents. F