Moro Kris for comments

VVV · 16th August 2007, 03:49 PM

Here is a Kris I found in Berlin this Spring.
The work on the grip looks like some of the more recent stuff but it all has nice patina.
The blade is old with a lot of talismanic inlay.
All comments appreciated to help me understand more about this Kris.

Michael

Flavio · 16th August 2007, 05:28 PM

WWW

WWW!!!!

Bill · 16th August 2007, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

The work on the grip looks like some of the more recent stuff but it all has nice patina.

Michael

Very Nice. I'd guess the hilt work was done in the 1960's but the Ivory may be original. The sheath may have been done in the 60's too, hard to say from pics. Doubt much work, like this, was done in the 70's or later.

VVV · 16th August 2007, 10:46 PM

Thanks Bill and Flavio,

I also recognise that style as more recent. The ivory for sure is much older as you also suspected.
But what is strange is that both I and the dealer, who is a quite experienced arms dealer even if his speciality isn't SE Asian blades, thought that the patina on both looked much older (like early 20th C).
Has that kind of work on the grip existed before the 50's?

Michael

Battara · 17th August 2007, 02:49 AM

VVV....

NICE PIECE!

Yes I agree with Bill and Flavio that that the metal work on the scabbard and hilt are later than the rest. The okir was being done before 1950s but the filigree style was not. This is definitely a datu piece and possibly Sulu (or even Maguindanao). Sulu did more of that type of filigree but the okir bands are more Maguindanao. I need to go to Berlin to get good pieces it seems.....

Congratulations!

Bill · 17th August 2007, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

But what is strange is that both I and the dealer, who is a quite experienced arms dealer even if his speciality isn't SE Asian blades, thought that the patina on both looked much older (like early 20th C).
Has that kind of work on the grip existed before the 50's?

Michael

I have no idea of a time line for the work. I based my opinion on a few swords I have, with some limited providence. I have one kris with very simular work that is from the 60's. Another that goes back to the 40's has a poorer quality that I (maybe incorrectly) assumed was early development. Battara may want to comment on patina. Not sure it is accurate for true dating. 1 good cleaning and 100 years disappears + different metal & conditions vary. The reason I don't think it goes as far as the 70's, is that conflict (going on again now) in the South diminished/disrupted metal work. But one craftsman may easily have a 40-50 year accumulation of work & a family, even longer. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if yours wasn't done by the same person as did mine.

VVV · 17th August 2007, 09:01 AM

Thanks Jose and Bill,

So the filigree and scabbard work is earliest 50's, probably 60's.
But now I am confused if it's Sulu or Maguindano?
And do you have any comments on the inlay and the blade?
On Berlin, this was the only Moro blade I found there, except a few old Kampilans.

Michael

CharlesS · 17th August 2007, 01:46 PM

Gorgeous!!... Michael, regardless of its composition portions.

Bill · 17th August 2007, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Thanks Jose and Bill,

So the filigree and scabbard work is earliest 50's, probably 60's.
But now I am confused if it's Sulu or Maguindano?
And do you have any comments on the inlay and the blade?
On Berlin, this was the only Moro blade I found there, except a few old Kampilans.

Michael

I think it's a Sulu mid 19C blade. The flower may be the lotus blossom. The other symbols, I'm not sure but they represent swiftness. Some Muslims believed that depicting animal forms was wrong, so it may be a interpetation of a crocodile. It looks like a fine sword & ivory would always be a luxury material; then a 100 years later someone again honors the sword with the filigree hilt, also a luxury. So it comes from a member of the Moro Gentry, shame it's history may be lost.

Bill · 17th August 2007, 07:36 PM

The tridents are protective in nature & point to the enemy.

Battara · 17th August 2007, 07:59 PM

Let me be more precise:

Yes I agree that the more I look at it the more Sulu it looks to me. The filigree is Sulu but I am still inclined to say that the other okir bands look more Maguindanao influenced.

On the blade, some of the decor is in the form of stylized vines. I will have to double check on the flowers again, though the type of flower motif on this is more in keeping with Sulu style. What Cato calls "arrows" that line part of the base of the blade are signs of a good quality blade according to him.

Patina: on the ivory, blade, or metal mounts?
On the ivory I would also say mid to late 19thc - which also go with the style of waves in the blade. The metal mounts - hard to tell since they patina so quickly.

Metal mounts look brass to me, though it is possible they could be heavily tarnished white metal. I will bet that they were originally silver bands like the the seemingly original baka-baka clamp.

Oh yeah, the top wranga of the scabbard appears Sulu too, though with later mounts.

VVV · 17th August 2007, 10:49 PM

Thanks for your comments!

I am not at home at the moment but will take a closer look on Sunday of the details that you have commented.

Michael

D Wilke · 19th August 2007, 01:43 PM

Battara, I'm confused (which is not something new)

I had thought that all that filigree work came out of Central Mindanao.
All the previous kris that I've seen provenanced to Sulu had generally smaller blades, though I agree this blade looks Sulu (especially the eagle beaks slant) and that they generally had the horsehoof handle. Granted there are many exceptions and I've seen that small pommel on many, but I've not seen that filigree on any blade attributed to Sulu.

Could this have been an old Sulu blade and pommel that was redressed in the Central Mindanao style? I've seen several of that type (and own one) in many of the antique shops in the PI.

Dan

Battara · 20th August 2007, 09:07 PM

After my brain freeze, I remembered that Mindanao also used filigree too - I have a gunong with some. However, this style of filigree I have attributed to late Sulu in the past. Would you post some pictures of the shop examples you are mentioning please?

D Wilke · 22nd August 2007, 05:00 AM

Batara,

I'll look through my pictures when I get home. I know I have a barong, recently redressed in Jolo that has similar okir, but didn't see any of that type of filigree available on my last trip there nor any craftsmen capable of producing it. Of course Sulu is bigger than just the one island and many of the smaller ones are known for individual crafts but I didn't see anything resembling this type of filigree in the limited trips to the markets I was able to take.

Unfortunately I'm in the process of shipping my collection back to the States. Recent events and Japanese law have made me wary of keeping my collection here any longer.

Dan

Battara · 22nd August 2007, 09:06 PM

Helpful information, thanks.

Sorry to hear about your weaponry situation.

16th August 2007, 03:49 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Moro Kris for comments Here is a Kris I found in Berlin this Spring. The work on the grip looks like some of the more recent stuff but it all has nice patina. The blade is old with a lot of talismanic inlay. All comments appreciated to help me understand more about this Kris. Michael Attached Images

17th August 2007, 07:59 PM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Let me be more precise: Yes I agree that the more I look at it the more Sulu it looks to me. The filigree is Sulu but I am still inclined to say that the other okir bands look more Maguindanao influenced. On the blade, some of the decor is in the form of stylized vines. I will have to double check on the flowers again, though the type of flower motif on this is more in keeping with Sulu style. What Cato calls "arrows" that line part of the base of the blade are signs of a good quality blade according to him. Patina: on the ivory, blade, or metal mounts? On the ivory I would also say mid to late 19thc - which also go with the style of waves in the blade. The metal mounts - hard to tell since they patina so quickly. Metal mounts look brass to me, though it is possible they could be heavily tarnished white metal. I will bet that they were originally silver bands like the the seemingly original baka-baka clamp. Oh yeah, the top wranga of the scabbard appears Sulu too, though with later mounts. Last edited by Battara; 17th August 2007 at 08:10 PM.

19th August 2007, 01:43 PM	#13
D Wilke Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Okinawa, JN Posts: 22	Filigree in Sulu? Battara, I'm confused (which is not something new) I had thought that all that filigree work came out of Central Mindanao. All the previous kris that I've seen provenanced to Sulu had generally smaller blades, though I agree this blade looks Sulu (especially the eagle beaks slant) and that they generally had the horsehoof handle. Granted there are many exceptions and I've seen that small pommel on many, but I've not seen that filigree on any blade attributed to Sulu. Could this have been an old Sulu blade and pommel that was redressed in the Central Mindanao style? I've seen several of that type (and own one) in many of the antique shops in the PI. Dan

20th August 2007, 09:07 PM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	After my brain freeze, I remembered that Mindanao also used filigree too - I have a gunong with some. However, this style of filigree I have attributed to late Sulu in the past. Would you post some pictures of the shop examples you are mentioning please? Last edited by Battara; 20th August 2007 at 09:21 PM.

16th August 2007, 05:28 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	WWW WWW!!!!

16th August 2007, 10:46 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Bill and Flavio, I also recognise that style as more recent. The ivory for sure is much older as you also suspected. But what is strange is that both I and the dealer, who is a quite experienced arms dealer even if his speciality isn't SE Asian blades, thought that the patina on both looked much older (like early 20th C). Has that kind of work on the grip existed before the 50's? Michael

17th August 2007, 02:49 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	VVV.... NICE PIECE! Yes I agree with Bill and Flavio that that the metal work on the scabbard and hilt are later than the rest. The okir was being done before 1950s but the filigree style was not. This is definitely a datu piece and possibly Sulu (or even Maguindanao). Sulu did more of that type of filigree but the okir bands are more Maguindanao. I need to go to Berlin to get good pieces it seems..... Congratulations!

17th August 2007, 09:01 AM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Jose and Bill, So the filigree and scabbard work is earliest 50's, probably 60's. But now I am confused if it's Sulu or Maguindano? And do you have any comments on the inlay and the blade? On Berlin, this was the only Moro blade I found there, except a few old Kampilans. Michael

17th August 2007, 01:46 PM	#8
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Gorgeous!!... Michael, regardless of its composition portions.

17th August 2007, 07:36 PM	#10
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	The tridents are protective in nature & point to the enemy.

17th August 2007, 10:49 PM	#12
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for your comments! I am not at home at the moment but will take a closer look on Sunday of the details that you have commented. Michael

22nd August 2007, 05:00 AM	#15
D Wilke Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Okinawa, JN Posts: 22	Batara, I'll look through my pictures when I get home. I know I have a barong, recently redressed in Jolo that has similar okir, but didn't see any of that type of filigree available on my last trip there nor any craftsmen capable of producing it. Of course Sulu is bigger than just the one island and many of the smaller ones are known for individual crafts but I didn't see anything resembling this type of filigree in the limited trips to the markets I was able to take. Unfortunately I'm in the process of shipping my collection back to the States. Recent events and Japanese law have made me wary of keeping my collection here any longer. Dan

22nd August 2007, 09:06 PM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Helpful information, thanks. Sorry to hear about your weaponry situation.