A Kampillan...But Moro???

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Tiger bells where used from thailand india Philipine to Borneo
It is no indication off country or people.


Ben

Although this is true, in the Philippines, most Moros did not use them and you are more likely to see them among the Bagobo and other Lumad tribes. None among the Igorot tribes in the north for example.

[Dajak]

Hi I found the drawing in the book off Hein he tells this is from the Sundajak on North Borneo page 347 fig. 76



Ben

[Dajak]

Drawing

[VVV]

We discussed those pictures in this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2820

I suspect when Hein writes Sun dayak it's the Dusun tribe. And that he mixed up the Dusun with their neigbours the Bajau tribe. At that time most of the Illanun had disappeared because of intermarriage with the Bajau according to Ivor Evans' book mentioned in the thread above.
I find Evans' several years of anthropological field research in Sabah better for separating the tribes than Hein's armchair studies.

On the tiger bell issue I agree with Ben. I find it hard to believe that all the large Kampilan with tiger bells you see now and then are Bagobo?

Michael

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by VVV

We discussed those pictures in this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2820

I suspect when Hein writes Sun dayak it's the Dusun tribe. And that he mixed up the Dusun with their neigbours the Bajau tribe. At that time most of the Illanun had disappeared because of intermarriage with the Bajau according to Ivor Evans' book mentioned in the thread above.
I find Evans' several years of anthropological field research in Sabah better for separating the tribes than Hein's armchair studies.



Michael

Michael Evan s did not study the indonesian and Borneo swordhandle s

Only the malay people as far as I can see


and it is also relevant wich time they study because 20 years difference make s a lot off differens between the aerea wich what was going on and there where also sulu s
living in the North part off Borneo .
I can t find nothing that he mean sundajaks that they are Dusun otherwise he would call them like it.
He is the only one that pictured the handle off the rare parang sankit .
I cannot find that in Evans books .

The Ethnographic Classification of the Dusun-Speaking Peoples of Northern Borneo
George N. Appell, Robert Harrison
Ethnology, Vol. 8, No. 2 (Apr., 1969), pp. 212-227
doi:10.2307/3772983


Ben

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

Originally Posted by Dajak

Michael Evan s did not study the indonesian and Borneo swordhandle s

Only the malay people as far as I can see

Hein didn't visit Borneo but made his studies in European museums and libraries.
Evans based his research both on older local sources as well as field studies among the different tribes.
Visiting villages and interviewing f.i. swordmakers about what weapons they produced and what weapons their ancestors produced.
He also researched what weapons that were used by the different tribes and where they came from if not locally made.
Evans' book is focused on in depth describing the Dusuns (p. 79 - 193) and the Bajau & Illanuns (p. 194 - 273).

Originally Posted by Dajak

and it is also relevant wich time they study because 20 years difference make s a lot off differens between the aerea wich what was going on and there where also sulu s
living in the North part off Borneo .
I can t find nothing that he mean sundajaks that they are Dusun otherwise he would call them like it.
He is the only one that pictured the handle off the rare parang sankit .
I cannot find that in Evans books .

Hein based the name Sundajak (see note 2 on page 348) on the publication by Dr Eduard Sonne; Die Bewohner Britisch-Nord-Borneos mit besonderer Berücksichtigung der Badjohs, Tumbonoas und Sundajaks (1893).

Badjohs is probably Bajaus. Tumbonoas is probably Tambatuan (which isn't a tribe but a district inhabitated by the Dusun tribe) and I find it quite probable that Sun is Dusun.
The reason for that is that no other source I have read about dayak tribes in North Borneo mentions the existence of any tribe named Sun.
If it exists, or ever existed, please give me a reference for this and I will of course change my conclusion?
I have gone through the major 6 works on Sabah Dayak tribes but found nothing on any tribe called Sun.
Also it would be extremely strange if Sonne didn't include the Dusun when describing major tribes in ex-British North Borneo?
That would be like neglecting Iban if describing tribes in Sarawak.

The reason Evans don't mention Parang Sangkit is that he doesn't write about the Muruts in his book.
Hein isn't 100% impressing on this as he isn't sure if the Sangkit is from Borneo or Sulu (see p. 343) ...

Originally Posted by Dajak

The Ethnographic Classification of the Dusun-Speaking Peoples of Northern Borneo
George N. Appell, Robert Harrison
Ethnology, Vol. 8, No. 2 (Apr., 1969), pp. 212-227
doi:10.2307/3772983


Ben

Please explain how this, probably interesting, article contributes to our discussion?

What's interesting is that Evans describes the weapons of Dusun as "largely procured from other tribes".
He lists the pida (barong), the pedang, parang ilang/gayang and sundang/serundang/kris as the Dusun swords - not the kampilan.

In the Bajau & Illanun weapon descriptions he writes (p. 253-254):

"...while the long Illanun sword, the kompilan, with its curiously carved and flattened handle, and its blade, narrow near the hilt, but broad and heavy at the point, came from Mindanao, the place of origin of the Illanuns themselves. Types of handle and blade somewhat similar to that of the kompilan are, however, found in islands farther to the east, notably Celebes and Timor."

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael
The Murut s was an large group off people from North Borneo so Evans did only a very small aerea of North Borneo and as you can read is that by travalling there people make mistakes so why is Evans right and the others that study and and visit long time before Evans are wrong .
Hein make an study same as Zonneveld did .
Take a look at the pakayuns they larger that any mandau or parang from North Borneo how could it be Evan did not see it ???
Can you explain that to me .


Ben

[Dajak]

Here some pics off dajak kampilans

[Battara]

VVV,

I am not necessarily saying that all kamkpilans with tiger bells are Bagobo, but that many with these can be Bagobo or Bagobo influenced, although I had forgotton about Borneo, where trade was common.