Another {magic/blessed} African stick?

Tim Simmons · 10th August 2007, 07:08 AM

I was thinking further than this stick which was just a catalyst to explore the possible numerology and magic square inspired motifs and patterns on weapons from peoples under Islamic influence.

Tim Simmons · 10th August 2007, 09:56 AM

I think there may be some confusion over Shongo and Songye. I have not given the full context but it is plain to see. The patterns could have more significance than a children's game. Possibly tapping into a kind of natural rhythm or magic. The pattern on the blade is the same as the one ringed. As for the stick it could be a kind of official counting or tally stick. The magic substance marking it as special and fit for office?

Tim Simmons · 12th August 2007, 09:22 AM

One last snippet about the stick not wanting to drift to far from weapons.

Jim McDougall · 12th August 2007, 09:29 PM

Hi Tim,
I wanted to thank you for posting this stick as well as for the excellent material you have posted in followup and research! I have always been intrigued by the symbolism found in the motif, markings, decorations and shapes in not only weapons but material culture. I am actually kind of surprised at the lack of response or observations from others on this thread since the subject matter is often key to ethnographic weapon study.

As you have shown with the material you have posted, numerology is strongly apparant in African symbolism and culture, of course much as in most other cultures. As you have mentioned there have been many discussions concerning numeric marks and sequenced material on weapons motif, such as the trimurti or three dots on Indian weapons, the seven stars on Chinese and so on. European blades, especially during 17th and 18th centuries were wrought with cabalistic and numeric symbolism, and it seems that numerics were often keyed to certain Masonic lore. I know that in certain design in hilt elements on British swords the numeric five was key.

In West African culture, as I am inclined to agree with you as the origin of this stick, another fascinating element of the culture based in degree on numerics, was the 'talking of the drums'. The messages had I believe been based on numeric beat sequences. Whether or not this applies here I am not sure, but thought it was worthy of note.

Thanks again very much Tim, for sharing the information and the chance to learn a little more on this interesting item.

All the best,
Jim

Luc LEFEBVRE · 13th August 2007, 10:47 PM

Hi Tim,
Very interesting subject !
Look at the first page of this pdf:
http://www.mathsworld.com.au/fileadm...TRB_Task15.pdf

Luc

Tim Simmons · 14th August 2007, 06:43 PM

Thanks Luc that is great, very helpful. So shongo is the name of the game/process. Piece by piece we move forward.

10th August 2007, 09:56 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Bingo! I think there may be some confusion over Shongo and Songye. I have not given the full context but it is plain to see. The patterns could have more significance than a children's game. Possibly tapping into a kind of natural rhythm or magic. The pattern on the blade is the same as the one ringed. As for the stick it could be a kind of official counting or tally stick. The magic substance marking it as special and fit for office?

12th August 2007, 09:22 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Finally One last snippet about the stick not wanting to drift to far from weapons.

10th August 2007, 07:08 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I was thinking further than this stick which was just a catalyst to explore the possible numerology and magic square inspired motifs and patterns on weapons from peoples under Islamic influence.

12th August 2007, 09:29 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Tim, I wanted to thank you for posting this stick as well as for the excellent material you have posted in followup and research! I have always been intrigued by the symbolism found in the motif, markings, decorations and shapes in not only weapons but material culture. I am actually kind of surprised at the lack of response or observations from others on this thread since the subject matter is often key to ethnographic weapon study. As you have shown with the material you have posted, numerology is strongly apparant in African symbolism and culture, of course much as in most other cultures. As you have mentioned there have been many discussions concerning numeric marks and sequenced material on weapons motif, such as the trimurti or three dots on Indian weapons, the seven stars on Chinese and so on. European blades, especially during 17th and 18th centuries were wrought with cabalistic and numeric symbolism, and it seems that numerics were often keyed to certain Masonic lore. I know that in certain design in hilt elements on British swords the numeric five was key. In West African culture, as I am inclined to agree with you as the origin of this stick, another fascinating element of the culture based in degree on numerics, was the 'talking of the drums'. The messages had I believe been based on numeric beat sequences. Whether or not this applies here I am not sure, but thought it was worthy of note. Thanks again very much Tim, for sharing the information and the chance to learn a little more on this interesting item. All the best, Jim

13th August 2007, 10:47 PM	#5
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	Hi Tim, Very interesting subject ! Look at the first page of this pdf: http://www.mathsworld.com.au/fileadm...TRB_Task15.pdf Luc

14th August 2007, 06:43 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Thanks Luc that is great, very helpful. So shongo is the name of the game/process. Piece by piece we move forward.