Ivory hilt dagger with "Tears" and a "Smiley?"

[Mare Rosu]

Hi all, just got back from the dealer in hilt material ( Mother of Pearl Company ) and the dagger was inspected by two of the folks there, and was told it was Elephant Ivory. The folks there could not tell me as to what country the Ivory came from but was in their their judgment Elephant Ivory' they showed me the fine cross hatch grain in the "wings of the hilt..

What makes all of this so interesting to me is that Rand, and Jens told me what it was and did not have the dagger to hold/look at. Could of saved a trip
Gene

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Mare Rosu

What makes all of this so interesting to me is that Rand, and Jens told me what it was and did not have the dagger to hold/look at. Could of saved a trip
Gene

Of course other than Elephant or Mamoth ivory the only other thing it could be is plastic! Which is common on old European knives but not Indo/persian etc. {Well till the fakers start doing that!]


The alternate grain is visible in your picture here.





I am sure between that & the cross hatching you will always identify it yourself in futre, rather than accepting what others say.

So your trip was worthwhile i think? knowledge is a great resource!

Spiral

[Jens Nordlunde]

Spiral, it is interesting that you mention mammoth ivory. Is there any difference between elephant and mammoth ivory, or are the both equal hard and with the same structure? Not that I think many of us will ever see a mammoth ivory hilted dagger, but just for the record.

Gene, I am sure you needed to come away from you computer for a while, and, like Spiral said, you learned something too.

[spiral]

Its identifiably different Jens by the angles of intersection of the cross hatching. {Schreger lines.}

Usualy Elephant is nearer 90 degrees & mammoth nearer 115 degrees in the outer areas of tusk.

But if several angle measuments are taken of any ivory piece in questian all elephant samples have averages above 100 degrees, and all the extinct proboscideans or {mammoths}have angle averages below 100 degrees.

Also Siberian Mamoth ivory is heavier & harder than Elephant ivory. i dont know about other sources of mammoth but they I am aware they are not usualy of the high quality of the Siberian material.

I think Mammoth ivory has been used on South East Asian pieces before & there was also a big market in Europe in it pre. 1900 with parcels of up to 20 tons auctioned at a time in Liverpool ,Antwerp & London. So I expect it could turn up anywhere.

Spiral

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you for the answer, the amount of mammoth ivory sold on auction surprised me a lot, so you are right – maybe, with a lot of luck, I will one day hold a mammoth ivory hilted dagger in my hand – the problem is, that I may not know it. Imagine how old that ivory is. It is also interesting to know that the Siberian mammoth ivory is harder and heavier than the elephant ivory. The mammoth ivory used in India and what was shipped to Europe for sale, could well have come from Siberia. Where else did/do you find so many mammoths?

[spiral]

Sorry for my lack of clarity Jens, The lots auctioned in Europe came from Siberia.

I havent seen it on Indian weapons but have heard of it used in the Malayan archipeligo. But others here would know more about that, I am sure.

i think lots is found in the North sea when drilling for oil etc but it is badly damaged, & discoloured some is found through out northen & eastern europe, & Alsaka as well. Others places to I expect.

But the good stuff is Siberian. it weights 20% to 30% more on average than Elephant.

Spiral

[Mare Rosu]

Spiral:
Sir, you are most correct, knowledge is a great power and you have supplied me with a lot of power from your excellent postings on Ivory. I did learn a lot from the hands on inspection from the handle material folks, but your posting were far more informative and technical. Showing me a picture I took and explaining what was in the picture. Information that I did not know was there, until you pointed it out, hard to believe!

Rand;
Thank you, as well, for the information about the material on my dagger handle, your "leaning" was right on. Do you think we could get Spiral to start a thread on his ivory knowledge, as you suggested? He said he is just learning about ivory, fine, I will take anything he offers. How about it Spiral, PLEASE!

Jens:
I do need to get out of the house occasionally ( not just to the doctors office! )
Again you have helped me in my never ending quest for knowledge.
I have acquired the name of my dagger, how the little balls were placed in the hilt, and what they were for, what the handle material is, also where it was probably made. Not bad, not bad at all.
Only thing still unknown to me is what was the "smiley" for?

I think I/we have "beat" this dagger to death with all the information from all the good folks, posting, on this forum. It is always amazing, to me, the collective knowledge/power that is shown by the forum folks. It has been a great "ride" for me and I thank you one and all for it.
Gene.