Ivory hilt dagger with "Tears" and a "Smiley?"

Jens Nordlunde · 8th August 2007, 09:44 PM

Spiral, I have not as yet been able to ask someone about the ivory, but I have examined it myself, and i am sure that it is elephant ivory. You only had the picture. I have the item, and that makes a difference when it comes to judging the hilt. Any new things you can come up with about the ivory will be most appreciated, as I think what you have come up with yet is great.

Jens

spiral · 8th August 2007, 11:13 PM

I made no comment about yours nice looking knives Jen,

Just about ivory in general.

I can see the one on the top of the left one is probably Elephant, I cant see enough detail of one on the right to be sure but I think your probably correct. I couldnt be certan from those pix, so I passed no comment.

The end grain should show intersecting diagonaly curved lines under a lens if Elephant or mammoth.

And changing stripes of refraced light on the long gain if turned fore & aft in sunlight.

cheers,

Spiral

Mare Rosu · 8th August 2007, 11:28 PM

Hi all, just got back from the dealer in hilt material ( Mother of Pearl Company ) and the dagger was inspected by two of the folks there, and was told it was Elephant Ivory. The folks there could not tell me as to what country the Ivory came from but was in their their judgment Elephant Ivory' they showed me the fine cross hatch grain in the "wings of the hilt..

What makes all of this so interesting to me is that Rand, and Jens told me what it was and did not have the dagger to hold/look at. Could of saved a trip

Gene

spiral · 9th August 2007, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mare Rosu

What makes all of this so interesting to me is that Rand, and Jens told me what it was and did not have the dagger to hold/look at. Could of saved a trip

Gene

Of course other than Elephant or Mamoth ivory the only other thing it could be is plastic! Which is common on old European knives but not Indo/persian etc. {Well till the fakers start doing that!]

The alternate grain is visible in your picture here.

I am sure between that & the cross hatching you will always identify it yourself in futre, rather than accepting what others say.

So your trip was worthwhile i think? knowledge is a great resource!

Spiral

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2007, 01:04 PM

Spiral, it is interesting that you mention mammoth ivory. Is there any difference between elephant and mammoth ivory, or are the both equal hard and with the same structure? Not that I think many of us will ever see a mammoth ivory hilted dagger, but just for the record.

Gene, I am sure you needed to come away from you computer for a while, and, like Spiral said, you learned something too

.

spiral · 9th August 2007, 03:11 PM

Its identifiably different Jens by the angles of intersection of the cross hatching. {Schreger lines.}

Usualy Elephant is nearer 90 degrees & mammoth nearer 115 degrees in the outer areas of tusk.

But if several angle measuments are taken of any ivory piece in questian all elephant samples have averages above 100 degrees, and all the extinct proboscideans or {mammoths}have angle averages below 100 degrees.

Also Siberian Mamoth ivory is heavier & harder than Elephant ivory. i dont know about other sources of mammoth but they I am aware they are not usualy of the high quality of the Siberian material.

I think Mammoth ivory has been used on South East Asian pieces before & there was also a big market in Europe in it pre. 1900 with parcels of up to 20 tons auctioned at a time in Liverpool ,Antwerp & London. So I expect it could turn up anywhere.

Spiral

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2007, 03:59 PM

Thank you for the answer, the amount of mammoth ivory sold on auction surprised me a lot, so you are right – maybe, with a lot of luck, I will one day hold a mammoth ivory hilted dagger in my hand – the problem is, that I may not know it. Imagine how old that ivory is. It is also interesting to know that the Siberian mammoth ivory is harder and heavier than the elephant ivory. The mammoth ivory used in India and what was shipped to Europe for sale, could well have come from Siberia. Where else did/do you find so many mammoths?

spiral · 9th August 2007, 05:34 PM

Sorry for my lack of clarity Jens, The lots auctioned in Europe came from Siberia.

I havent seen it on Indian weapons but have heard of it used in the Malayan archipeligo. But others here would know more about that, I am sure.

i think lots is found in the North sea when drilling for oil etc but it is badly damaged, & discoloured some is found through out northen & eastern europe, & Alsaka as well. Others places to I expect.

But the good stuff is Siberian. it weights 20% to 30% more on average than Elephant.

Spiral

8th August 2007, 11:28 PM	#3
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Elephant Ivory Hi all, just got back from the dealer in hilt material ( Mother of Pearl Company ) and the dagger was inspected by two of the folks there, and was told it was Elephant Ivory. The folks there could not tell me as to what country the Ivory came from but was in their their judgment Elephant Ivory' they showed me the fine cross hatch grain in the "wings of the hilt.. What makes all of this so interesting to me is that Rand, and Jens told me what it was and did not have the dagger to hold/look at. Could of saved a trip Gene

9th August 2007, 01:04 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Spiral, it is interesting that you mention mammoth ivory. Is there any difference between elephant and mammoth ivory, or are the both equal hard and with the same structure? Not that I think many of us will ever see a mammoth ivory hilted dagger, but just for the record. Gene, I am sure you needed to come away from you computer for a while, and, like Spiral said, you learned something too.

8th August 2007, 09:44 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Spiral, I have not as yet been able to ask someone about the ivory, but I have examined it myself, and i am sure that it is elephant ivory. You only had the picture. I have the item, and that makes a difference when it comes to judging the hilt. Any new things you can come up with about the ivory will be most appreciated, as I think what you have come up with yet is great. Jens

8th August 2007, 11:13 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I made no comment about yours nice looking knives Jen, Just about ivory in general. I can see the one on the top of the left one is probably Elephant, I cant see enough detail of one on the right to be sure but I think your probably correct. I couldnt be certan from those pix, so I passed no comment. The end grain should show intersecting diagonaly curved lines under a lens if Elephant or mammoth. And changing stripes of refraced light on the long gain if turned fore & aft in sunlight. cheers, Spiral

9th August 2007, 03:11 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Its identifiably different Jens by the angles of intersection of the cross hatching. {Schreger lines.} Usualy Elephant is nearer 90 degrees & mammoth nearer 115 degrees in the outer areas of tusk. But if several angle measuments are taken of any ivory piece in questian all elephant samples have averages above 100 degrees, and all the extinct proboscideans or {mammoths}have angle averages below 100 degrees. Also Siberian Mamoth ivory is heavier & harder than Elephant ivory. i dont know about other sources of mammoth but they I am aware they are not usualy of the high quality of the Siberian material. I think Mammoth ivory has been used on South East Asian pieces before & there was also a big market in Europe in it pre. 1900 with parcels of up to 20 tons auctioned at a time in Liverpool ,Antwerp & London. So I expect it could turn up anywhere. Spiral

9th August 2007, 03:59 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for the answer, the amount of mammoth ivory sold on auction surprised me a lot, so you are right – maybe, with a lot of luck, I will one day hold a mammoth ivory hilted dagger in my hand – the problem is, that I may not know it. Imagine how old that ivory is. It is also interesting to know that the Siberian mammoth ivory is harder and heavier than the elephant ivory. The mammoth ivory used in India and what was shipped to Europe for sale, could well have come from Siberia. Where else did/do you find so many mammoths?

9th August 2007, 05:34 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Sorry for my lack of clarity Jens, The lots auctioned in Europe came from Siberia. I havent seen it on Indian weapons but have heard of it used in the Malayan archipeligo. But others here would know more about that, I am sure. i think lots is found in the North sea when drilling for oil etc but it is badly damaged, & discoloured some is found through out northen & eastern europe, & Alsaka as well. Others places to I expect. But the good stuff is Siberian. it weights 20% to 30% more on average than Elephant. Spiral