Ivory hilt dagger with "Tears" and a "Smiley?"

spiral · 8th August 2007, 09:02 PM

If only I knew enough to make a seperate thread worthwhile Rand.

I am just a student myself...

Much ivory coloring is just surface patina or induced through, age & dirt & sweat, tea, smoke ,chicory were often used to colour items or the Chinese favorite for turning it yellow is nose sweat!

Hard heavy white ivory of good quality came from Guinea, cameroons ,Gabon & the Congo. It is what many antique dealers refer to as Indian as it has the same percieved look and qualities of jungle dwelling Elephants of India & Burma. It is the favorite of Oriental carvers as it will polish like glass.

Soft ivory is sometimes veined with darker streaks & used to mainly come from Senegal,Ethiopia, Egypt, Sudan & Kenya. It was popular for Billiard balls & piano keys as it was easy to work.

ill have a look through my libary & notes & see what else I can find on the subject.

Spiral

Jens Nordlunde · 8th August 2007, 09:44 PM

Spiral, I have not as yet been able to ask someone about the ivory, but I have examined it myself, and i am sure that it is elephant ivory. You only had the picture. I have the item, and that makes a difference when it comes to judging the hilt. Any new things you can come up with about the ivory will be most appreciated, as I think what you have come up with yet is great.

Jens

spiral · 8th August 2007, 11:13 PM

I made no comment about yours nice looking knives Jen,

Just about ivory in general.

I can see the one on the top of the left one is probably Elephant, I cant see enough detail of one on the right to be sure but I think your probably correct. I couldnt be certan from those pix, so I passed no comment.

The end grain should show intersecting diagonaly curved lines under a lens if Elephant or mammoth.

And changing stripes of refraced light on the long gain if turned fore & aft in sunlight.

cheers,

Spiral

Mare Rosu · 8th August 2007, 11:28 PM

Hi all, just got back from the dealer in hilt material ( Mother of Pearl Company ) and the dagger was inspected by two of the folks there, and was told it was Elephant Ivory. The folks there could not tell me as to what country the Ivory came from but was in their their judgment Elephant Ivory' they showed me the fine cross hatch grain in the "wings of the hilt..

What makes all of this so interesting to me is that Rand, and Jens told me what it was and did not have the dagger to hold/look at. Could of saved a trip

Gene

spiral · 9th August 2007, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mare Rosu

What makes all of this so interesting to me is that Rand, and Jens told me what it was and did not have the dagger to hold/look at. Could of saved a trip

Gene

Of course other than Elephant or Mamoth ivory the only other thing it could be is plastic! Which is common on old European knives but not Indo/persian etc. {Well till the fakers start doing that!]

The alternate grain is visible in your picture here.

I am sure between that & the cross hatching you will always identify it yourself in futre, rather than accepting what others say.

So your trip was worthwhile i think? knowledge is a great resource!

Spiral

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2007, 01:04 PM

Spiral, it is interesting that you mention mammoth ivory. Is there any difference between elephant and mammoth ivory, or are the both equal hard and with the same structure? Not that I think many of us will ever see a mammoth ivory hilted dagger, but just for the record.

Gene, I am sure you needed to come away from you computer for a while, and, like Spiral said, you learned something too

.

spiral · 9th August 2007, 03:11 PM

Its identifiably different Jens by the angles of intersection of the cross hatching. {Schreger lines.}

Usualy Elephant is nearer 90 degrees & mammoth nearer 115 degrees in the outer areas of tusk.

But if several angle measuments are taken of any ivory piece in questian all elephant samples have averages above 100 degrees, and all the extinct proboscideans or {mammoths}have angle averages below 100 degrees.

Also Siberian Mamoth ivory is heavier & harder than Elephant ivory. i dont know about other sources of mammoth but they I am aware they are not usualy of the high quality of the Siberian material.

I think Mammoth ivory has been used on South East Asian pieces before & there was also a big market in Europe in it pre. 1900 with parcels of up to 20 tons auctioned at a time in Liverpool ,Antwerp & London. So I expect it could turn up anywhere.

Spiral

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2007, 03:59 PM

Thank you for the answer, the amount of mammoth ivory sold on auction surprised me a lot, so you are right – maybe, with a lot of luck, I will one day hold a mammoth ivory hilted dagger in my hand – the problem is, that I may not know it. Imagine how old that ivory is. It is also interesting to know that the Siberian mammoth ivory is harder and heavier than the elephant ivory. The mammoth ivory used in India and what was shipped to Europe for sale, could well have come from Siberia. Where else did/do you find so many mammoths?

8th August 2007, 11:28 PM	#4
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Elephant Ivory Hi all, just got back from the dealer in hilt material ( Mother of Pearl Company ) and the dagger was inspected by two of the folks there, and was told it was Elephant Ivory. The folks there could not tell me as to what country the Ivory came from but was in their their judgment Elephant Ivory' they showed me the fine cross hatch grain in the "wings of the hilt.. What makes all of this so interesting to me is that Rand, and Jens told me what it was and did not have the dagger to hold/look at. Could of saved a trip Gene

9th August 2007, 01:04 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Spiral, it is interesting that you mention mammoth ivory. Is there any difference between elephant and mammoth ivory, or are the both equal hard and with the same structure? Not that I think many of us will ever see a mammoth ivory hilted dagger, but just for the record. Gene, I am sure you needed to come away from you computer for a while, and, like Spiral said, you learned something too.

8th August 2007, 09:02 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	If only I knew enough to make a seperate thread worthwhile Rand. I am just a student myself... Much ivory coloring is just surface patina or induced through, age & dirt & sweat, tea, smoke ,chicory were often used to colour items or the Chinese favorite for turning it yellow is nose sweat! Hard heavy white ivory of good quality came from Guinea, cameroons ,Gabon & the Congo. It is what many antique dealers refer to as Indian as it has the same percieved look and qualities of jungle dwelling Elephants of India & Burma. It is the favorite of Oriental carvers as it will polish like glass. Soft ivory is sometimes veined with darker streaks & used to mainly come from Senegal,Ethiopia, Egypt, Sudan & Kenya. It was popular for Billiard balls & piano keys as it was easy to work. ill have a look through my libary & notes & see what else I can find on the subject. Spiral

8th August 2007, 09:44 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Spiral, I have not as yet been able to ask someone about the ivory, but I have examined it myself, and i am sure that it is elephant ivory. You only had the picture. I have the item, and that makes a difference when it comes to judging the hilt. Any new things you can come up with about the ivory will be most appreciated, as I think what you have come up with yet is great. Jens

8th August 2007, 11:13 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I made no comment about yours nice looking knives Jen, Just about ivory in general. I can see the one on the top of the left one is probably Elephant, I cant see enough detail of one on the right to be sure but I think your probably correct. I couldnt be certan from those pix, so I passed no comment. The end grain should show intersecting diagonaly curved lines under a lens if Elephant or mammoth. And changing stripes of refraced light on the long gain if turned fore & aft in sunlight. cheers, Spiral

9th August 2007, 03:11 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Its identifiably different Jens by the angles of intersection of the cross hatching. {Schreger lines.} Usualy Elephant is nearer 90 degrees & mammoth nearer 115 degrees in the outer areas of tusk. But if several angle measuments are taken of any ivory piece in questian all elephant samples have averages above 100 degrees, and all the extinct proboscideans or {mammoths}have angle averages below 100 degrees. Also Siberian Mamoth ivory is heavier & harder than Elephant ivory. i dont know about other sources of mammoth but they I am aware they are not usualy of the high quality of the Siberian material. I think Mammoth ivory has been used on South East Asian pieces before & there was also a big market in Europe in it pre. 1900 with parcels of up to 20 tons auctioned at a time in Liverpool ,Antwerp & London. So I expect it could turn up anywhere. Spiral

9th August 2007, 03:59 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for the answer, the amount of mammoth ivory sold on auction surprised me a lot, so you are right – maybe, with a lot of luck, I will one day hold a mammoth ivory hilted dagger in my hand – the problem is, that I may not know it. Imagine how old that ivory is. It is also interesting to know that the Siberian mammoth ivory is harder and heavier than the elephant ivory. The mammoth ivory used in India and what was shipped to Europe for sale, could well have come from Siberia. Where else did/do you find so many mammoths?