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Berkley · 7th August 2007, 12:53 AM

Quote:

there are no proof marks visible

Thank you for adding this information – I kept looking for proof marks in the pictures and thought it strange that I saw none. The following information may be useful to you; however, attempting to determine the authenticity of an antique firearm from a photograph is not something I would venture to do.

Quote:

The practice of proving firearms apparently started in 1637 when a royal charter was granted to the gunmakers’ guild of London which authorized them to have the final authority in the testing of all firearms…. If you find the letters “VP” on a gun that has been sold in the British Empire, it means “Viewed and Proved.” The first step, called “Viewing,” consists of tests to see that all parts have the necessary tolerance, that they are assembled properly, and that the gun functions well mechanically. At the end of this process, the letter “V” is stamped on the gun. Next, heavy charges are fired to see if the gun is safe; if it is, it is regarded as “proved” and the “P” is stamped.

Gun Collecting, Chapel, Charles Edward; “Identification”, pp.140-141.

Quote:

The first Charter of Incorporation of the London Gun-makers’ Company possibly did not confer the powers which rendered gun-barrel proving at the Company’s house imperative, but the second charter, granted in 1672, gave powers of searching for and proving and marking all manner of hand guns, great and small, daggs and pistols, and every part thereof, whether made in London or the suburbs, or within ten miles thereof, or imported from foreign parts, or otherwise brought thither for sale; and a scale for proof was thereby established.

The Gun and Its Development, Greener, W.W., “The Proof of Guns”, p.288.
The absence of any proof marks is, therefore, at least a cause for concern. (It should be noted that the marks might be other than the "VP" referred to above, and might include variants of "GP", "BP", or other combinations, depending on the place and date of manufacture and proving. The letters would be in script typeface, surmounted by a lion rampant or royal crown).
Berkley

Jim McDougall · 7th August 2007, 07:42 PM

Excellent information Berkeley!!! and thank you so much for citing the references. I think its most helpful when details are addressed as you have done.
Best regards,
Jim

fernando · 7th August 2007, 09:50 PM

Thank you Berkeley
Your quotations are most interesting, and almost coinciding with the references i read in my little book "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" by Gerhard Wirnsberger, translated by R.A. Steindler. We can read here that a first Royal edict was issued in 1631 and not in 1637 as often stated, permitting the association or guild of ( seven ) gunsmiths, charging them with the responsability to keep the arms of citizen's militia in shootable condition. They were granted the right of inspection, and each such arm was marked with a crown over "A" stamp. On March 1637 gunsmiths banded together and founded the pompously named "Worshipfull Company of Gunmakers of the City of London", replacing the not less pompously named "The Master, Wardens and Society of the Misterie of Gunmakers of the City of London". The original Worshipfull Company consisted of 125 gun makers, of which 63 were London citizens. They had the powers to search for unproofed firearms, and even confiscate them, in case the owner didn't want to test them. It was also forbidden to sell arms that did not bear the crown over "A" mark.
The obliging mark at this time was the crown over "A" for the Gunmakers Company, as well as the crown over "GP" for the proof mark. In 1670 the Crown over "V" was added. During the 18th century these marks were seen together, with the barrel maker name between them. Crossed scepters, rampart lions and crowns followed as arm and barrel proof marks for long time.
However other countries, Belgium included, have their history on marks, and those should appear according to the same rules. However exceptions make the rules, and there are arms with so many different stories. Somebody has just sugested that my piece could have been made in raw condition in Belgium for a British order, and be decorated and finished at the destination, with the intentional erasing of the original proof marks ... one of so many probabilities. I have meanwhile dismounted the barrel ... not the whole mechanism, which is rather complex for me. No marks in the interior though

.
My dilemma continues.

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2007, 08:54 PM

Hi Fernando,
I must say this pistol you have posted is, as always with your items! most interesting and I am learning quite a lot on these firearms from your continued research and Berkeleys notes. I just received the current Bonhams catalog from London and item #422 is a flintlock 'turnoff' pistol by North, Royal Exchange, London c.1750. While the pistol is in most regards similar with longer barrel, what is most interesting is the same style silver wire foliate scrollwork on the butt.
Edward North is listed as Master of the Gunmakers Company in 1753 and 1758, and armourer to the Honourable Artillery Company. He is also shown as furbisher of arms to London bankers. Perhaps this smaller gun was made as a protection pistol for one of these bankers in the smaller size and as you note for a 'night pistol' . Sort of a pocket shotgun?

I wish I could scan the photo to post, but the scrollwork is compellingly like that seen on this North pistol. The auction took place July 25,2007 at Bonhams www.bonhams.com

Incidentally, what does the term 'turnoff pistol' mean"?

I hope this helps.

All best regards,
Jim

fernando · 9th August 2007, 10:10 PM

Hi Jim
Thanks a lot for your ( allways simpathetic ) input.
Turn off barrel, or screw off barrel.
It means that the barrel is not an entire piece, but divided in two sections. The advantage is that, when you screw it off, almost all cilindrical part comes out, leaving a chamber just after the breech, where you can place a bullit a little wider than the actual barrel bore ( caliber ) increasing the shooting pressure and therefore improving the direction accuracy. When bullits are ramed through the barrel muzzel, they have to be narrower than the actual bore, for a couple reasons ( this difference being called vento=wind ) decreasing the said pressure and consequent precision.
I hope i made myself understood.
Kin regards
fernando

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2007, 10:41 PM

Hi Fernando,
Thanks so much for the explanation, I really appreciate better understanding these terms.
Best regards,
Jim

Berkley · 10th August 2007, 02:13 AM

Jim,
Here is a little pistol which illustrates several points that Fernando has raised. This is a screw-barrel or turn-off barrel pistol opened to show the position of the ball. As Fernando says, this forms a tight seal in the bore by using an oversized lead ball of greater than bore diameter, which eliminates the “windage” necessary to push a ball down the barrel from the muzzle with a ramrod, and makes a relatively high-powered small pistol. This particular pistol is of later manufacture, common design, and decidedly inferior workmanship to Fernando's elegant example. Although marked “London”, it in fact has Birmingham proof marks. It is also marked H Nock, although that famous London maker would not have turned out anything of this rough quality. (In any event, he died before the Birmingham proof house was established). In short, it’s an English pistol that was intentionally mismarked when made to deceive the original buyer with a spurious claim of greater quality than it possessed, or as Fernando says, "increase the image of the product".

Berkley

7th August 2007, 09:50 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Berkeley Your quotations are most interesting, and almost coinciding with the references i read in my little book "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" by Gerhard Wirnsberger, translated by R.A. Steindler. We can read here that a first Royal edict was issued in 1631 and not in 1637 as often stated, permitting the association or guild of ( seven ) gunsmiths, charging them with the responsability to keep the arms of citizen's militia in shootable condition. They were granted the right of inspection, and each such arm was marked with a crown over "A" stamp. On March 1637 gunsmiths banded together and founded the pompously named "Worshipfull Company of Gunmakers of the City of London", replacing the not less pompously named "The Master, Wardens and Society of the Misterie of Gunmakers of the City of London". The original Worshipfull Company consisted of 125 gun makers, of which 63 were London citizens. They had the powers to search for unproofed firearms, and even confiscate them, in case the owner didn't want to test them. It was also forbidden to sell arms that did not bear the crown over "A" mark. The obliging mark at this time was the crown over "A" for the Gunmakers Company, as well as the crown over "GP" for the proof mark. In 1670 the Crown over "V" was added. During the 18th century these marks were seen together, with the barrel maker name between them. Crossed scepters, rampart lions and crowns followed as arm and barrel proof marks for long time. However other countries, Belgium included, have their history on marks, and those should appear according to the same rules. However exceptions make the rules, and there are arms with so many different stories. Somebody has just sugested that my piece could have been made in raw condition in Belgium for a British order, and be decorated and finished at the destination, with the intentional erasing of the original proof marks ... one of so many probabilities. I have meanwhile dismounted the barrel ... not the whole mechanism, which is rather complex for me. No marks in the interior though . My dilemma continues. Last edited by fernando; 7th August 2007 at 10:28 PM.

10th August 2007, 02:13 AM	#7
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Jim, Here is a little pistol which illustrates several points that Fernando has raised. This is a screw-barrel or turn-off barrel pistol opened to show the position of the ball. As Fernando says, this forms a tight seal in the bore by using an oversized lead ball of greater than bore diameter, which eliminates the “windage” necessary to push a ball down the barrel from the muzzle with a ramrod, and makes a relatively high-powered small pistol. This particular pistol is of later manufacture, common design, and decidedly inferior workmanship to Fernando's elegant example. Although marked “London”, it in fact has Birmingham proof marks. It is also marked H Nock, although that famous London maker would not have turned out anything of this rough quality. (In any event, he died before the Birmingham proof house was established). In short, it’s an English pistol that was intentionally mismarked when made to deceive the original buyer with a spurious claim of greater quality than it possessed, or as Fernando says, "increase the image of the product". Berkley Attached Images

7th August 2007, 07:42 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Excellent information Berkeley!!! and thank you so much for citing the references. I think its most helpful when details are addressed as you have done. Best regards, Jim

9th August 2007, 08:54 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hi Fernando, I must say this pistol you have posted is, as always with your items! most interesting and I am learning quite a lot on these firearms from your continued research and Berkeleys notes. I just received the current Bonhams catalog from London and item #422 is a flintlock 'turnoff' pistol by North, Royal Exchange, London c.1750. While the pistol is in most regards similar with longer barrel, what is most interesting is the same style silver wire foliate scrollwork on the butt. Edward North is listed as Master of the Gunmakers Company in 1753 and 1758, and armourer to the Honourable Artillery Company. He is also shown as furbisher of arms to London bankers. Perhaps this smaller gun was made as a protection pistol for one of these bankers in the smaller size and as you note for a 'night pistol' . Sort of a pocket shotgun? I wish I could scan the photo to post, but the scrollwork is compellingly like that seen on this North pistol. The auction took place July 25,2007 at Bonhams www.bonhams.com Incidentally, what does the term 'turnoff pistol' mean"? I hope this helps. All best regards, Jim

9th August 2007, 10:10 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jim Thanks a lot for your ( allways simpathetic ) input. Turn off barrel, or screw off barrel. It means that the barrel is not an entire piece, but divided in two sections. The advantage is that, when you screw it off, almost all cilindrical part comes out, leaving a chamber just after the breech, where you can place a bullit a little wider than the actual barrel bore ( caliber ) increasing the shooting pressure and therefore improving the direction accuracy. When bullits are ramed through the barrel muzzel, they have to be narrower than the actual bore, for a couple reasons ( this difference being called vento=wind ) decreasing the said pressure and consequent precision. I hope i made myself understood. Kin regards fernando

9th August 2007, 10:41 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hi Fernando, Thanks so much for the explanation, I really appreciate better understanding these terms. Best regards, Jim