Non ethno sword with strange inscription

tom hyle · 9th March 2005, 01:28 AM

The engraving looks fairly nicely done (a little crude), and I don't think I understand why anyone would have a problem with it. After market engraving and decoration of blades is quite traditional.
The blade does look old, and it also may have always been a practice sword; sharpening it might be more a conversion than a restoration, but don't let that stop you

The hand guard does not look old. It looks to have been arc/torch-welded up from thickish sheet steel cutouts, and some bar for the annoes.

Rather · 9th March 2005, 08:08 AM

The engraving looks quite newto me, most likely done with one of these little engraving machines, normally used for drinking glass.
Maybe someone wanted to use the sword for one of these role play games. The dulling of the blade would also fit to this theory.
What to do with it? Difficult to say. Personally, I would try to polish it off, or at least try to stain the engraving to make it look older and more like the rest of the blade.

fearn · 9th March 2005, 03:52 PM

Yep, I was thinking Dremmel engraving tool when I saw that too.

Given the most active thread at the moment, perhaps you'd like to check the blade to see if it's magnetized, Eftihis?

Fearn

tom hyle · 10th March 2005, 01:19 AM

The edges look rounded and of the same finish as the other blade surfaces; why are we thinking they have been blunted? Perhaps they were never sharpened (common with old European military swords, which this could well be a blade from), or possibly they were originally rebated for practice use. Without handling the sword I can't tell. There's a strange looking area in the close-up of the hilt where the blade goes in; it could concievably be a place where blade outside the hilt was narrowed, leaving a wider part visible in the guard hole, but A/ There's a definite line dividing whatever the light area is from the blade B/ doesn't it seem likely that if after-market rebating was done it was done at the time of the hilting? So why do it after? Inexperieced workmanship? That could also grind so close to the guard and not mark it? and C/ If so, what's holding the guard on? (though I've seen European bayonets with the very feature I just described; tang down thru hole to the very edge of the air is wider than blade; originally made that way; why I don't know, and the guard held on by rivets)
I'm still really puzzled by the hostility toward the very likely sincere religious inscription. I'm not nuts about electric engraving, but it's interesting to see from a bunch that usually isn't that hot on re-doing/undoing.....This may not be my favourite engraving, but let me be very clear: it is NOT damage.

fearn · 10th March 2005, 02:51 AM

Hi Tom,

Don't look at me for the bias. I personally think that it's a genuine Wiccan athame--a sword, for use in larger rituals, but a ritual blade nonetheless. Basically, it's in the same category as African "dance" swords and other such implements. It's not a weapon, any more than a cross or a chalice is.

Were it made for role-playing, I'd expect runes or Tolkeinian elvish script on the blade, rather than theban script.

There's probably an interesting story about how that blade ended up on Crete, in Eftihis' collection. If he's uncomfortable with it, I'll happily pay the postage to take it off his hands. I won't have much trouble finding a wiccan priest (or priestess) who would be happy to give it a home.

Fearn

nechesh · 10th March 2005, 03:41 AM

Have to say i'm right with fearn on this one, though i would tend to think the inscriber of this sword was more Ceremonial than Wiccan. Many Wiccan tend towards fire as the elemental attribution for the sword. Ceremonalists from lodges like the Golden Dawn or the OTO would certainly link the sword to air. Also, as Mark pointed out, the eye does have a distinctly Egyptian flavor. Egyptian symbolism is far more likely to be used by Ceremonialists than Wiccans.
Tom, i also find it interesting that some would suggest removal of these symbols from this blade. This is clearly NOT the work of some fantasy role player. These symbols were placed on this blade for a magickal/mystical purpose AND practice. Ceremonial Magick and Wicca are both very valid philosophy/religions which tend to be greatly misunderstood by the uninitiated masses. But i suppose humans have always tended to want to eradicate that with they do not understand.
BTW, the "Lord of Swift Winds" is also a tarot card. The King of Sword is also know as the "Lord of Winds and Breezes" so Mark, it's not just somebody's idea of a cool name. This is a sword that no doubt saw some actual ritual use. People do this kind of thing in Crete just as much as anywhere else, so i don't think it is at all surprising to find it there.

Andrew · 10th March 2005, 04:41 AM

Just a casual observation: the blade appears shortened. The wide fuller looks like it runs "through" the tip.

Yannis · 10th March 2005, 08:37 AM

Eftihis
Now I know how to blackmail you to give me one of the cretan knifes you have! I know some ultra orthodox they can come and murmur exorcisms on you and this sword of pagans!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

There's probably an interesting story about how that blade ended up on Crete, in Eftihis' collection.

I suppose that even in Crete they have heard about Ebay. Oh, globalization!

Mark · 10th March 2005, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I'm still really puzzled by the hostility toward the very likely sincere religious inscription. I'm not nuts about electric engraving, but it's interesting to see from a bunch that usually isn't that hot on re-doing/undoing.....This may not be my favourite engraving, but let me be very clear: it is NOT damage.

I wasn't being hostile, but at the time I made that comment about defacing the sword, I was assuming that it was part of some fantasy role-player's costume. I have no problem with fantasy role-players in costume, either; I just don't think modifying a genuine antique in a non-genuine way is appropriate in that context.

I can see the argument that it is a genuine ritual object, in which case it might be better to leave as-is. Wiccan in the U.S. has a very pop-culture aspect to it, though, so sometimes I wonder how often someone is following a fad when they take up Wiccan, and thus is really justified (or even qualified) to create such a ritual object. The UK I think has a very well established and sincere Wiccan community, however, so seeing as its most likely from there, it also is most likely a genuine ritual object.

Sort of a quandry -- should one preserve the original state/use of an article, or maintain it as it might have been modified for a later or different use?

RobT · 20th March 2005, 10:59 PM

Hi.
I have listened in to the forum for about two years and am deeply indebted to to the moderators and members for the knowledge gained. Due to my lack of a digital camera, my opportunities for contribution have been limited so this will be my first posting. I would like to point out the similarity between the lyrari/reraides legend that eftihis mentioned and the Mississippi delta blues legend in the US. According to the story, if a musician brings his guitar to the crossroads at midnight there will be someone waiting there (some say it's the devil but there is not complete agreement about this). The musician hands the guitar to the entity and the entity tunes up the guitar and hands it back to the musician. After that, the musician can play anything he (or presumably she) wants. The price for this service is proported to be rather high including sorrow, loss of loved ones, estrangement from the fellowship of men, madness, death, and/or loss of one's immortal soul. Considered against the typical existence of a black sharecropper in the delta however, it is arguably a good deal. It was said that the famous blues musician Robert Johnson, faced with that choice, made this bargain. The thing that I find amazing is that two dissimilar cultures, with no historical contact, could come up with such a similar legend.

Rick · 20th March 2005, 11:43 PM

Hi Rob , there seems to be a thread that connects many myths through many cultures .
An interesting book on this subject is Hamlet's Mill (An essay on myth and the frame of time) .

Yannis · 21st March 2005, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

The thing that I find amazing is that two dissimilar cultures, with no historical contact, could come up with such a similar legend.

This contact could exist. Crete is only 300 km from North Africa. There was exchange of ideas since Ancient Egyptians – Minoans civilizations. I am not an expert on the subject but I see a probable link to Afroamericans and the blues culture.

Also I was dining with a lyrari 2 nights ago. I asked him about this legend and he agreed. In his version the musician has to point a finger out of the circle so Neraidas (=fairies) can bite and taste some of his blood.

A third person was there and he knew the legend too. In his version there are no Neraidas but devils, so the musician risks his soul.

10th March 2005, 01:19 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The edges look rounded and of the same finish as the other blade surfaces; why are we thinking they have been blunted? Perhaps they were never sharpened (common with old European military swords, which this could well be a blade from), or possibly they were originally rebated for practice use. Without handling the sword I can't tell. There's a strange looking area in the close-up of the hilt where the blade goes in; it could concievably be a place where blade outside the hilt was narrowed, leaving a wider part visible in the guard hole, but A/ There's a definite line dividing whatever the light area is from the blade B/ doesn't it seem likely that if after-market rebating was done it was done at the time of the hilting? So why do it after? Inexperieced workmanship? That could also grind so close to the guard and not mark it? and C/ If so, what's holding the guard on? (though I've seen European bayonets with the very feature I just described; tang down thru hole to the very edge of the air is wider than blade; originally made that way; why I don't know, and the guard held on by rivets) I'm still really puzzled by the hostility toward the very likely sincere religious inscription. I'm not nuts about electric engraving, but it's interesting to see from a bunch that usually isn't that hot on re-doing/undoing.....This may not be my favourite engraving, but let me be very clear: it is NOT damage. Last edited by tom hyle; 10th March 2005 at 08:53 AM. Reason: forgetfulness, clarifying, pointing out an exception to my own argument

10th March 2005, 03:41 AM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Have to say i'm right with fearn on this one, though i would tend to think the inscriber of this sword was more Ceremonial than Wiccan. Many Wiccan tend towards fire as the elemental attribution for the sword. Ceremonalists from lodges like the Golden Dawn or the OTO would certainly link the sword to air. Also, as Mark pointed out, the eye does have a distinctly Egyptian flavor. Egyptian symbolism is far more likely to be used by Ceremonialists than Wiccans. Tom, i also find it interesting that some would suggest removal of these symbols from this blade. This is clearly NOT the work of some fantasy role player. These symbols were placed on this blade for a magickal/mystical purpose AND practice. Ceremonial Magick and Wicca are both very valid philosophy/religions which tend to be greatly misunderstood by the uninitiated masses. But i suppose humans have always tended to want to eradicate that with they do not understand. BTW, the "Lord of Swift Winds" is also a tarot card. The King of Sword is also know as the "Lord of Winds and Breezes" so Mark, it's not just somebody's idea of a cool name. This is a sword that no doubt saw some actual ritual use. People do this kind of thing in Crete just as much as anywhere else, so i don't think it is at all surprising to find it there. Last edited by nechesh; 10th March 2005 at 05:03 AM.

20th March 2005, 10:59 PM	#10
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 563	crossroads Hi. I have listened in to the forum for about two years and am deeply indebted to to the moderators and members for the knowledge gained. Due to my lack of a digital camera, my opportunities for contribution have been limited so this will be my first posting. I would like to point out the similarity between the lyrari/reraides legend that eftihis mentioned and the Mississippi delta blues legend in the US. According to the story, if a musician brings his guitar to the crossroads at midnight there will be someone waiting there (some say it's the devil but there is not complete agreement about this). The musician hands the guitar to the entity and the entity tunes up the guitar and hands it back to the musician. After that, the musician can play anything he (or presumably she) wants. The price for this service is proported to be rather high including sorrow, loss of loved ones, estrangement from the fellowship of men, madness, death, and/or loss of one's immortal soul. Considered against the typical existence of a black sharecropper in the delta however, it is arguably a good deal. It was said that the famous blues musician Robert Johnson, faced with that choice, made this bargain. The thing that I find amazing is that two dissimilar cultures, with no historical contact, could come up with such a similar legend.

9th March 2005, 01:28 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The engraving looks fairly nicely done (a little crude), and I don't think I understand why anyone would have a problem with it. After market engraving and decoration of blades is quite traditional. The blade does look old, and it also may have always been a practice sword; sharpening it might be more a conversion than a restoration, but don't let that stop you The hand guard does not look old. It looks to have been arc/torch-welded up from thickish sheet steel cutouts, and some bar for the annoes.

9th March 2005, 08:08 AM	#2
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	The engraving looks quite newto me, most likely done with one of these little engraving machines, normally used for drinking glass. Maybe someone wanted to use the sword for one of these role play games. The dulling of the blade would also fit to this theory. What to do with it? Difficult to say. Personally, I would try to polish it off, or at least try to stain the engraving to make it look older and more like the rest of the blade.

9th March 2005, 03:52 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Yep, I was thinking Dremmel engraving tool when I saw that too. Given the most active thread at the moment, perhaps you'd like to check the blade to see if it's magnetized, Eftihis? Fearn

10th March 2005, 02:51 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tom, Don't look at me for the bias. I personally think that it's a genuine Wiccan athame--a sword, for use in larger rituals, but a ritual blade nonetheless. Basically, it's in the same category as African "dance" swords and other such implements. It's not a weapon, any more than a cross or a chalice is. Were it made for role-playing, I'd expect runes or Tolkeinian elvish script on the blade, rather than theban script. There's probably an interesting story about how that blade ended up on Crete, in Eftihis' collection. If he's uncomfortable with it, I'll happily pay the postage to take it off his hands. I won't have much trouble finding a wiccan priest (or priestess) who would be happy to give it a home. Fearn

10th March 2005, 04:41 AM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Just a casual observation: the blade appears shortened. The wide fuller looks like it runs "through" the tip.

20th March 2005, 11:43 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Hi Rob , there seems to be a thread that connects many myths through many cultures . An interesting book on this subject is Hamlet's Mill (An essay on myth and the frame of time) .