Flyssa - I finally got one!!

[Jeff D]

Sorry Jim. I have only had time to lurk here lately, but, here is my contribution.

All the Best
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Teodor and Jeff!!!! You guys are great!!
Those are both outstanding examples, and it is most interesting to see the sometimes subtle variation in the decoration. As always it would be incredible to find a way to assign regional or period consistancy to certain designs. The inlaid geometric brass triangles are of course apotropaic, but it does seem that the other geometrics may have other intrinsic meanings or symbolism.
I'm hoping that looking at the designs and motif in these we might get some ideas.
Anybody have any recommendations for resources on Berber symbols and designs. I recall reading that much of the symbolism from material culture from Berber regions is sometimes duplicated on the weapons.

All the best,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Hi Jim!

Starting on p.146 of the Desjardins treatise, there is ample discussion of the decorative motifs. Even if one cannot read French, there are diagrams and tables. Desjardins' conclusion seems to be that the ensemble is purely decorative and is achieved through a combination of basic shapes depending on the shape and length of the blade. The whole is a balanced composition and there are no two symbols or images alike. She proposes that all of the old flyssa's demonstrate the same use of combinations of three blocks of decoration. The client is ultimately responsible for choosing the blocks from a choice presented by the smith, so perhaps we are not seeing any indications of social status based on decorative scheme.

Incidentally, I read some 19th century accounts of Algeria, and I encountered numerous passages describing Kabyle culture and ways. At one point there was mention of a young man leaving the village with his clothes and his flissa. When he had made a fortune, he would return to his village, buy a house and a yataghan and get married. It seems that the Ottoman yataghans coexisted with the flyssa, and it was more highly regarded than the latter.
Furthermore, it seems that Kabyles - while supersticious - did not use amulets and charms. If such is this case, the explanation of the dot/ball on the flyssa pommel as a ward against the evil eye may be incorrect. I will look for the texts again and provide the sources.
Lastly, Desjardins specifies that flyssa blades are mostly iron, with only slight carburizing. It seems that there is enough carbon content along the edge to allow hardening, but the interior and back remain low-carbon and soft. Could anyone do a test to confirm or refute this?

Forum member Berberdagger posted a document of different Berber symbols a while ago http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...chmentid=18230 . Some are recognizable on flyssa's, but not all.
I'll translate and post the relevant passages in Desjardins...it'll take a bit though.

Best regards,
Emanuel

[Lew]

Desjardins specifies that flyssa blades are mostly iron, with only slight carburizing. It seems that there is enough carbon content along the edge to allow hardening, but the interior and back remain low-carbon and soft. Could anyone do a test to confirm or refute this?


The only way to test this theory is to have one of our pieces rockwell tested and that would mean possibly ruining the blade with little dots from the testing. IMO most of these swords were probably forged from some type of round bar stock. I don't think that the source would be plain carburized iron more like a medium carbon steel with just enough carbon to have the edge hardened. If you look at Jeff's example you can see the temper line that starts just forward of the choil.

Lew

[Tatyana Dianova]

OK, here is mine. It is VERY long (please see how it compares to normal yataghan), in reality it is more than 1 meter long. And it is very heavy, I even cannot imagine how one may wield it with one arm! It has whole steel construction, with hilt made from the same steel bar as the blade, decorated with brass.
Does anybody know, why all flyssas seem to be in a very good condition? Are they not so old?

[kronckew]

i imagine it's a bit longer as it needs to be used from camel back, they're a bit taller than horses. an infantry/naval weapon is generally shorter as you do not want it hitting the ground as you swing it. on a horse/camel you want it long enough to strike an enemy on foot, so length would be appropriate. as far as musculature, practice makes perfect. there are very few of us nowadays who would spend the time to develop the musculature required for serious swordsmanship. or archery. who can pull a 150lb longbow at 6 aimed arrows/min for a half hour or more? they could at crecy & agincourt.

when i was measured for my naval officers sword, it was measured such that the tip missed the ground (deck actually) by 1 inch as it was gripped comfortably in my hand and pointed at the ground. i once saw another officer during a parade with a borrowed sword that did hit the ground as he was marching & saluting, the blade snapped and he was very embarrassed. it would have been even more embarrassing in the old days in a real battle. probably fatally so.

and, finally, men always like to brag about how long their weapon is....

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Jeff and Tatyana for adding your examples...and especially for the photos showing the detail on the motif!
Emanuel I really appreciate the notes on the Desjardins work, the data is very helpful.
It is interesting to see the variations in the motif, which seem quite subtle in the geometric designs, though it seems puzzling that it is noted that such motif was determined by the length and shape of blade. It seems the blades are always of basically the same shape, except those rare variant curved forms. It also seems puzzling that she states that the Kabyles though superstitious, do not use amulets and charms, while Berbers overall use essentially the same symbolics in material culture such as textiles, jewellery etc. as well as in tattooing.
The geometric designs in general Berber symbolism seem distinctly the basis for much of the motif on the flyssa, though as noted, the variation seems quite subtle. Although we are aware that the Berber term is applied loosely to geographically widespread confederation of tribes, it would seem that such symbolism would be consistant in artistic application regardless of interpretation. Actually in reviewing the standard illustrated glossaries of such symbolism it seems in my opinion somewhat contrived much as such interpretations of rock art symbolism and much categorically assembled material on symbolism.

While this assessment may be somewhat defeating in trying to find the meanings behind much of the motif on flyssas, I still believe there were more deliberately applied purposes in earlier examples. As has been noted in Desjardines, later flyssa became more widely produced and of course more degraded as typical of volume production, so decorative motif without meaning would be standard. This is much the same as the duplication of trade markings on blades intended to suggest quality for marketing purposes, or the application of thuluth script on Sudanese weapons.

Another interesting thing regarding 19th century Algeria and the young men returning from gaining thier fortunes, notes that they would then get a sword either yataghan or flyssa, but the Ottoman yataghan was more highly esteemed. This seems interesting since many earlier discussions refuted the idea that the yataghan could have had influence on the development of the flyssa since Ottomans never conquered the Kabyles.

I apologize for not responding sooner, I am occasionally out of computer signal area. I really do appeciate everyones responses in this and look forward to continuing discussion on the flyssas. All of you have shown excellent examples and it is great to look at them in comparison.

Thank you all again !!!!

All the best,
Jim