Flyssa - I finally got one!!

Jim McDougall · 30th July 2007, 09:11 PM

I wanted to thank Manolo, Kronckew, Lew and Tim for posting your examples of flyssa, which is very much appreciated. There has really been very little research done on these, with the exception of the references kindly noted. Sadly there appears to be little interest in them as evidenced in the cursory mention in most sources in English, and most attention to them seems to be confined to collecting examples.

I think there is a great deal to be revealed in further study of these unique swords and what better place to discuss them than here

I am hoping that others out there who may own examples and have interest in them might come forward so we can learn more about them.

Cmon guys!!!

All the best,
Jim

TVV · 30th July 2007, 10:42 PM

OK, here is mine, a short example similar to the one Tim posted, only not as nice. Similar symbols as well. Keep them coming guys.
Teodor

Jeff D · 31st July 2007, 01:25 AM

Sorry Jim. I have only had time to lurk here lately, but, here is my contribution.

All the Best
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2007, 01:57 AM

Thank you so much Teodor and Jeff!!!! You guys are great!!

Those are both outstanding examples, and it is most interesting to see the sometimes subtle variation in the decoration. As always it would be incredible to find a way to assign regional or period consistancy to certain designs. The inlaid geometric brass triangles are of course apotropaic, but it does seem that the other geometrics may have other intrinsic meanings or symbolism.
I'm hoping that looking at the designs and motif in these we might get some ideas.
Anybody have any recommendations for resources on Berber symbols and designs. I recall reading that much of the symbolism from material culture from Berber regions is sometimes duplicated on the weapons.

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 31st July 2007, 11:29 PM

Hi Jim!

Starting on p.146 of the Desjardins treatise, there is ample discussion of the decorative motifs. Even if one cannot read French, there are diagrams and tables. Desjardins' conclusion seems to be that the ensemble is purely decorative and is achieved through a combination of basic shapes depending on the shape and length of the blade. The whole is a balanced composition and there are no two symbols or images alike. She proposes that all of the old flyssa's demonstrate the same use of combinations of three blocks of decoration. The client is ultimately responsible for choosing the blocks from a choice presented by the smith, so perhaps we are not seeing any indications of social status based on decorative scheme.

Incidentally, I read some 19th century accounts of Algeria, and I encountered numerous passages describing Kabyle culture and ways. At one point there was mention of a young man leaving the village with his clothes and his flissa. When he had made a fortune, he would return to his village, buy a house and a yataghan and get married. It seems that the Ottoman yataghans coexisted with the flyssa, and it was more highly regarded than the latter.
Furthermore, it seems that Kabyles - while supersticious - did not use amulets and charms. If such is this case, the explanation of the dot/ball on the flyssa pommel as a ward against the evil eye may be incorrect. I will look for the texts again and provide the sources.
Lastly, Desjardins specifies that flyssa blades are mostly iron, with only slight carburizing. It seems that there is enough carbon content along the edge to allow hardening, but the interior and back remain low-carbon and soft. Could anyone do a test to confirm or refute this?

Forum member Berberdagger posted a document of different Berber symbols a while ago http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...chmentid=18230 . Some are recognizable on flyssa's, but not all.
I'll translate and post the relevant passages in Desjardins...it'll take a bit though.

Best regards,
Emanuel

Lew · 1st August 2007, 04:14 PM

Desjardins specifies that flyssa blades are mostly iron, with only slight carburizing. It seems that there is enough carbon content along the edge to allow hardening, but the interior and back remain low-carbon and soft. Could anyone do a test to confirm or refute this?

The only way to test this theory is to have one of our pieces rockwell tested and that would mean possibly ruining the blade with little dots from the testing. IMO most of these swords were probably forged from some type of round bar stock. I don't think that the source would be plain carburized iron more like a medium carbon steel with just enough carbon to have the edge hardened. If you look at Jeff's example you can see the temper line that starts just forward of the choil.

Lew

Tatyana Dianova · 2nd August 2007, 03:29 PM

OK, here is mine. It is VERY long (please see how it compares to normal yataghan), in reality it is more than 1 meter long. And it is very heavy, I even cannot imagine how one may wield it with one arm! It has whole steel construction, with hilt made from the same steel bar as the blade, decorated with brass.
Does anybody know, why all flyssas seem to be in a very good condition? Are they not so old?

30th July 2007, 10:42 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,719	OK, here is mine, a short example similar to the one Tim posted, only not as nice. Similar symbols as well. Keep them coming guys. Teodor Attached Images

31st July 2007, 01:25 AM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Sorry Jim. I have only had time to lurk here lately, but, here is my contribution. All the Best Jeff Attached Images

31st July 2007, 11:29 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim! Starting on p.146 of the Desjardins treatise, there is ample discussion of the decorative motifs. Even if one cannot read French, there are diagrams and tables. Desjardins' conclusion seems to be that the ensemble is purely decorative and is achieved through a combination of basic shapes depending on the shape and length of the blade. The whole is a balanced composition and there are no two symbols or images alike. She proposes that all of the old flyssa's demonstrate the same use of combinations of three blocks of decoration. The client is ultimately responsible for choosing the blocks from a choice presented by the smith, so perhaps we are not seeing any indications of social status based on decorative scheme. Incidentally, I read some 19th century accounts of Algeria, and I encountered numerous passages describing Kabyle culture and ways. At one point there was mention of a young man leaving the village with his clothes and his flissa. When he had made a fortune, he would return to his village, buy a house and a yataghan and get married. It seems that the Ottoman yataghans coexisted with the flyssa, and it was more highly regarded than the latter. Furthermore, it seems that Kabyles - while supersticious - did not use amulets and charms. If such is this case, the explanation of the dot/ball on the flyssa pommel as a ward against the evil eye may be incorrect. I will look for the texts again and provide the sources. Lastly, Desjardins specifies that flyssa blades are mostly iron, with only slight carburizing. It seems that there is enough carbon content along the edge to allow hardening, but the interior and back remain low-carbon and soft. Could anyone do a test to confirm or refute this? Forum member Berberdagger posted a document of different Berber symbols a while ago http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...chmentid=18230 . Some are recognizable on flyssa's, but not all. I'll translate and post the relevant passages in Desjardins...it'll take a bit though. Best regards, Emanuel Last edited by Manolo; 1st August 2007 at 12:32 AM.

2nd August 2007, 03:29 PM	#7
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 741	OK, here is mine. It is VERY long (please see how it compares to normal yataghan), in reality it is more than 1 meter long. And it is very heavy, I even cannot imagine how one may wield it with one arm! It has whole steel construction, with hilt made from the same steel bar as the blade, decorated with brass. Does anybody know, why all flyssas seem to be in a very good condition? Are they not so old? Attached Images

30th July 2007, 09:11 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,605	I wanted to thank Manolo, Kronckew, Lew and Tim for posting your examples of flyssa, which is very much appreciated. There has really been very little research done on these, with the exception of the references kindly noted. Sadly there appears to be little interest in them as evidenced in the cursory mention in most sources in English, and most attention to them seems to be confined to collecting examples. I think there is a great deal to be revealed in further study of these unique swords and what better place to discuss them than here I am hoping that others out there who may own examples and have interest in them might come forward so we can learn more about them. Cmon guys!!! All the best, Jim

31st July 2007, 01:57 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,605	Thank you so much Teodor and Jeff!!!! You guys are great!! Those are both outstanding examples, and it is most interesting to see the sometimes subtle variation in the decoration. As always it would be incredible to find a way to assign regional or period consistancy to certain designs. The inlaid geometric brass triangles are of course apotropaic, but it does seem that the other geometrics may have other intrinsic meanings or symbolism. I'm hoping that looking at the designs and motif in these we might get some ideas. Anybody have any recommendations for resources on Berber symbols and designs. I recall reading that much of the symbolism from material culture from Berber regions is sometimes duplicated on the weapons. All the best, Jim

1st August 2007, 04:14 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Desjardins specifies that flyssa blades are mostly iron, with only slight carburizing. It seems that there is enough carbon content along the edge to allow hardening, but the interior and back remain low-carbon and soft. Could anyone do a test to confirm or refute this? The only way to test this theory is to have one of our pieces rockwell tested and that would mean possibly ruining the blade with little dots from the testing. IMO most of these swords were probably forged from some type of round bar stock. I don't think that the source would be plain carburized iron more like a medium carbon steel with just enough carbon to have the edge hardened. If you look at Jeff's example you can see the temper line that starts just forward of the choil. Lew