Ivory hilt dagger with "Tears" and a "Smiley?"

kronckew · 29th July 2007, 03:42 PM

hi mare,

here's an overall picture, you can make out the 'C' fairly well.

here's a closeup

(the 'ethnographic' arms at the top of the picture belong to Millie (aka. Balto Millenium), my irish 45mph couch potato)

Jens Nordlunde · 29th July 2007, 04:25 PM

I have seen the ’C’ (smiley) before, but mostly they are not so far down the hilt, those i have seen are almost as if they are a rest to the little finger, but it can not be so in this case – or the little finger must have been veeery big. Even more so, that it on Gene’s hilt is marked with a colour. It does have a meaning, or they would not have made it, but I have a blank spot I am afraid. I am however looking forward to a picture of the magnetic fields. Gene, I was afraid you had sold your collection of compasses after the last big test

.

Come to think of it Gene, is there any decoration at the base of the blade? I don’t know how many balls there are supposed to be, but how many are there in your hilt? The shut seems to be rather big, can the balls fall out?

Mare Rosu · 29th July 2007, 06:22 PM

Kronckew, great pictures you posted, like you dog also, being a dog nut, what breed is it?.
The "Smiley" on your kard is about the same place as it is on mine.
Not in the "pinkie" finger area that Jens has seen before.
I have never seen that cut on a hilt before and hope some of the forum folks Could shed some more light on it. Wounder if it is a maker's mark?
Jens the dark area inside the "smiley" cleaned off as it was just dirt. Used Ren Wax and it came off.
I also did a quick clean on the blade and an acid etch. Found what I think is a temper line on the blade (see pictures), but nothing else, the crucible steel pattern did show up rather nicely though. You can also see a forging crack on the blade.
Jens the slot for the balls/tears is rather large but the ball will not come out and there are 12 steel balls in the slot. I, at first counted 13 but did a recount and there are 12, no Jens one did not fall out.
Anyone got any idea how the ball were placed in the slots?

kronckew · 29th July 2007, 08:23 PM

hi mare,
caution thread veer ahead:

Millie is a retired NGC greyhound, she raced up till 2004 and was a grade A1 just before she was injured and stopped racing (she won her next to last race at 10:1 & made her owner a bundle, then hurt her foot next race when another dog collided with her. i adopted her a few months later to be a companion for me and my other (male) greyhound, Blue - a blue brindle)

Blue was found as a stray puppie & i've had him since he was 10Mo. - he's never raced.
Both on the spare bed: (both are about 65lb each of pure muscle)

end of thread veer zone: we now return you to our normally scheduled subject.

re the balls: i suspect that the channel was cut into the grip, the balls added then the metal cover was set into the grip to retain them. clever craftsmanship could have notched the recess in the ivory such that a slightly sprung hooked area on the retainer clicked into place without need of cement...

kai · 30th July 2007, 08:46 AM

Hello Gene,

Just as an aside: the magnetic field seems to follow the blades curve - is it possible that the (relatively) low forging temperature of wootz allows an original ingot to remain magnetized? That still wouldn't explain the reversal though!

I know that a magnetized steel needle becomes depolarized when heated to glowing red - what about dendritic steel though? Need to pull out my compass and test another recurved blade...

Regards,
Kai

Jens Nordlunde · 30th July 2007, 04:42 PM

Nice kard you have Kronckew, and you are right, it is the same type of smiley. Do you have any idea; even a guess would do at this time, of what the meaning can be? I believe the channel in which the balls run must have been made finished before the balls were entered. If the front had been more open in a place, and when the balls were in place had to be hammered back in place, it could easily have happened that the part being hammered at could/would have been hammered a bit too much down, and spoil the running of the balls. To my opinion the place where the balls were entered must be hidden by one of the grip shells.

Well Gene, you surely have a nice collection of compasses as well as weapons, and you are a specialist in finding blades with a multiply of poles

. Do you demand a compass reading before you buy, or do you make the test when you have the weapon? It looks rather confusing, and maybe Kai is onto something, but on the other hand, I thought that iron/steel would loose the magnetism then you hit it. It is some time ago I read this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=292 but the answer to the question should be hidden in one of the posts.

rand · 30th July 2007, 05:41 PM

Fascinating posts,

Jens, what a well researched reply, was a pleasure to read.

Am I correct that the compass's point towards the thickest part of the blade is, namesly the tip and the bolsa?

rand

29th July 2007, 04:25 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I have seen the ’C’ (smiley) before, but mostly they are not so far down the hilt, those i have seen are almost as if they are a rest to the little finger, but it can not be so in this case – or the little finger must have been veeery big. Even more so, that it on Gene’s hilt is marked with a colour. It does have a meaning, or they would not have made it, but I have a blank spot I am afraid. I am however looking forward to a picture of the magnetic fields. Gene, I was afraid you had sold your collection of compasses after the last big test. Come to think of it Gene, is there any decoration at the base of the blade? I don’t know how many balls there are supposed to be, but how many are there in your hilt? The shut seems to be rather big, can the balls fall out? Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 29th July 2007 at 04:41 PM.

29th July 2007, 06:22 PM	#3
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Kronckew, great pictures you posted, like you dog also, being a dog nut, what breed is it?. The "Smiley" on your kard is about the same place as it is on mine. Not in the "pinkie" finger area that Jens has seen before. I have never seen that cut on a hilt before and hope some of the forum folks Could shed some more light on it. Wounder if it is a maker's mark? Jens the dark area inside the "smiley" cleaned off as it was just dirt. Used Ren Wax and it came off. I also did a quick clean on the blade and an acid etch. Found what I think is a temper line on the blade (see pictures), but nothing else, the crucible steel pattern did show up rather nicely though. You can also see a forging crack on the blade. Jens the slot for the balls/tears is rather large but the ball will not come out and there are 12 steel balls in the slot. I, at first counted 13 but did a recount and there are 12, no Jens one did not fall out. Anyone got any idea how the ball were placed in the slots? Attached Images Last edited by Mare Rosu; 29th July 2007 at 06:37 PM.

30th July 2007, 04:42 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Nice kard you have Kronckew, and you are right, it is the same type of smiley. Do you have any idea; even a guess would do at this time, of what the meaning can be? I believe the channel in which the balls run must have been made finished before the balls were entered. If the front had been more open in a place, and when the balls were in place had to be hammered back in place, it could easily have happened that the part being hammered at could/would have been hammered a bit too much down, and spoil the running of the balls. To my opinion the place where the balls were entered must be hidden by one of the grip shells. Well Gene, you surely have a nice collection of compasses as well as weapons, and you are a specialist in finding blades with a multiply of poles. Do you demand a compass reading before you buy, or do you make the test when you have the weapon? It looks rather confusing, and maybe Kai is onto something, but on the other hand, I thought that iron/steel would loose the magnetism then you hit it. It is some time ago I read this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=292 but the answer to the question should be hidden in one of the posts.

30th July 2007, 05:41 PM	#7
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Magnetic directions Fascinating posts, Jens, what a well researched reply, was a pleasure to read. Am I correct that the compass's point towards the thickest part of the blade is, namesly the tip and the bolsa? rand

29th July 2007, 03:42 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	hi mare, here's an overall picture, you can make out the 'C' fairly well. here's a closeup (the 'ethnographic' arms at the top of the picture belong to Millie (aka. Balto Millenium), my irish 45mph couch potato)

29th July 2007, 08:23 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	hi mare, caution thread veer ahead: Millie is a retired NGC greyhound, she raced up till 2004 and was a grade A1 just before she was injured and stopped racing (she won her next to last race at 10:1 & made her owner a bundle, then hurt her foot next race when another dog collided with her. i adopted her a few months later to be a companion for me and my other (male) greyhound, Blue - a blue brindle) Blue was found as a stray puppie & i've had him since he was 10Mo. - he's never raced. Both on the spare bed: (both are about 65lb each of pure muscle) end of thread veer zone: we now return you to our normally scheduled subject. re the balls: i suspect that the channel was cut into the grip, the balls added then the metal cover was set into the grip to retain them. clever craftsmanship could have notched the recess in the ivory such that a slightly sprung hooked area on the retainer clicked into place without need of cement...

30th July 2007, 08:46 AM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Gene, Just as an aside: the magnetic field seems to follow the blades curve - is it possible that the (relatively) low forging temperature of wootz allows an original ingot to remain magnetized? That still wouldn't explain the reversal though! I know that a magnetized steel needle becomes depolarized when heated to glowing red - what about dendritic steel though? Need to pull out my compass and test another recurved blade... Regards, Kai