Yet Another Moro Kriss

David · 22nd July 2007, 02:52 AM

Welcome to the forum Jazz. Very nice kris, especially for that money...however, i sincerely doubt it is older then late 19thC.
For some reason none of your close-ups appear, but the profile of this blade is nothing like the "archaic" kris from the 1700s.
The inlays look nice. As for the inscription, perhaps you could re-post your close-ups. Very doubtful it would be in Jawi though. The scale pattern is not one we haven't seen before and i am sure you will see a few posted by other forumites. I don't see anything particularly rare about the kakatau, but again i can't see the close-ups.
It certainly is a fine weapon and i would be excited to own it myself (especially at that price), but i am afraid it is not particularly odd or rare. Congrats on a great buy though.

Ian · 22nd July 2007, 02:56 AM

Hi Jazz:

I must agree with David. This looks like a late 19th/early 20th C kris with an even more recent hilt. The hilt was probably made in Mindanao, but the blade may be Sulu.

Nice kris at a very good price. Congratulations and welcome to the Forum.

Ian.

Battara · 22nd July 2007, 05:48 AM

I agree with Dave and Ian. I also suspect that the hilt wrap is a later replacement for missing bands - it is missing a silver ferrule to at least match the silver top. Try your closeups again please.

Jazz · 22nd July 2007, 08:05 AM

sorry guys, I was in a rush. Here's the continuation:

Also, another telltale sign would be the ukkil decorations on the handle.

Going back to this kriss's age: my assertion of it being from the 1700's were based on the size of the sword, which is 'diminutive' compared to the later ones; and more importantly, the rare transitional pommel style which is a cross between the 'ancient' type cockatoo and the more 'modern' type which tends to have a longer beak and flared out plume, albeit narrower in total width.

to be continued...

Jazz · 22nd July 2007, 08:06 AM

continuation:

It's possible that the handle is not original to the blade, but I would dare say that's highly unlikely. Another evidence that this was an older sword is how the length of the handle is smaller than the more 'recent' krisses. Yes, there's a possibility that it could be a boy's kriss, but one must remember that people a few hundred years ago were slightly smaller than their present day counterpart, not unlike us compared to our predessesor in this country a century or so ago.

Now here's the best part: the inlays on the blade. I have seen some of the more common designs and patterns in this forum, but I can't find a single pattern similar to the one on this kriss. I'm preplexed as to what it signify, half guessing that perhaps it represents the scales of a snake.

But what's throwing me off are what's on the tip of these inlays. Please note that it's not in mirror image on both sides, a common trait with decorative inlays, rather it's two different designs altogether.

I'm not really familiar with the native writings of that era, but i'm half guessing it's either jawi, and if it is, it's someone's name (original owner? sword's name?), OR some type of symbol related to the beliefs of the culture at that time. Another curve ball is the fact that if the blade represent a snake in motion, and the inlays are scale, then why would the handle represent a bird's head, as we now take for granted? As far as I'm concerned, there are no mythological creature of this type in Moroland, a half snake/half bird creature. This is where I would like to hear everyone's opinion. From what I've seen and read from previous posts, there seems to be no shortage of intelligent members in this forum. Perhaps, by posting this here, it could be analyze or even identified by the house experts. I would really appreciate on whatever else comments that any of you can add.

Otherwise, I think that it's a real neat sword, far cry from the replica and cheap swords that I ever own. Although this kriss is much lighter, I'm just amazed at the balance of this deadly weapon, still sharp from all these centuries. I realize that this is not really my field of expertise, so whatever I've written are purely my opinion, but nevertheless, I hope I haven't offended anyone with my writing. Thank you for reading my first post.

Flavio · 22nd July 2007, 09:31 AM

Hi Jazz, first of all welcome to the forum

Second let me say that i'm completly ignorant on moro arms, but I love them and I'm trying to learn more about them

If I remember right Cato, in his book, says that the older blade are characterized by a line of separation from gangya and blade that is almost horizontal. In the other hand late 19th century and early 20th century blades shows a line with a degree of 45°, like yours. More, even if the blade rapresents the naga (with beautiful scales on your piece) it's not unusual to find serpetine blades with cacatooa handle. Anyway I will be happy to find such a nice kris also for twice the price you have paid !!!

Bill · 22nd July 2007, 01:56 PM

Hi Jazz & Welcome. I agree with all the comments made so far. I'd guess your sword is between 100 & 125 years old. If you etch it, I wouldn't be surprised if a nice "marble" pattern didn't come out. These swords were made by a lot of different groups & specifically for ones preference. Some are so large & heavy, I wonder how effectively they were used. There has been discussion in the past about the smaller kakatua, smaller then yours. While some think it's a sign of age (& I agree, most are older), I think it is Indonesian. Nice sword & one I'm sure most of us would want in our collections.

kai · 23rd July 2007, 12:49 AM

Quote:

It's possible that the handle is not original to the blade, but I would dare say that's highly unlikely. Another evidence that this was an older sword is how the length of the handle is smaller than the more 'recent' krisses.

The pommel is genuine and has some age but it's next to impossible to verify wether it's original. Smaller pommels were utilised into the 20th c. AFAIK, so they don't help much with dating a piece. Some Sulu (and Indonesian) kris seem to have small hilts (with narrow grips apparently intended for small hands) - including later examples.

Regards,
Kai

Jazz · 23rd July 2007, 04:27 AM

Bill, it appears as if the pommels on our kriss is identical; as a matter of fact, it is! what's your humble opinion in regards to the age of your kriss? I would be interested to know if you don't mind.

Kai, very interesting observation. Yes, smaller pommels has been utilized in the 20th century, and by no means I'm inferring that it's an earlier century monopoly, it's just that this certain style somehow are more common with the earlier krisses. As far as the Maranao bulge: this kriss is interesting in that it's angled enough to be mistaken as Sulu, but yet the small bulge (see picture above) kinda threw it off, hence my theory that this is an earlier form of a Maranao bulge, IMHO...

Please keep the comments coming guys. This is indeed a very interesting topic.

22nd July 2007, 02:52 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,241	Welcome to the forum Jazz. Very nice kris, especially for that money...however, i sincerely doubt it is older then late 19thC. For some reason none of your close-ups appear, but the profile of this blade is nothing like the "archaic" kris from the 1700s. The inlays look nice. As for the inscription, perhaps you could re-post your close-ups. Very doubtful it would be in Jawi though. The scale pattern is not one we haven't seen before and i am sure you will see a few posted by other forumites. I don't see anything particularly rare about the kakatau, but again i can't see the close-ups. It certainly is a fine weapon and i would be excited to own it myself (especially at that price), but i am afraid it is not particularly odd or rare. Congrats on a great buy though. Last edited by David; 22nd July 2007 at 07:14 AM. Reason: spelling!

22nd July 2007, 02:56 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,481	Hi Jazz: I must agree with David. This looks like a late 19th/early 20th C kris with an even more recent hilt. The hilt was probably made in Mindanao, but the blade may be Sulu. Nice kris at a very good price. Congratulations and welcome to the Forum. Ian.

22nd July 2007, 05:48 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,339	I agree with Dave and Ian. I also suspect that the hilt wrap is a later replacement for missing bands - it is missing a silver ferrule to at least match the silver top. Try your closeups again please.

22nd July 2007, 08:05 AM	#4
Jazz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 44	sorry guys, I was in a rush. Here's the continuation: Also, another telltale sign would be the ukkil decorations on the handle. Going back to this kriss's age: my assertion of it being from the 1700's were based on the size of the sword, which is 'diminutive' compared to the later ones; and more importantly, the rare transitional pommel style which is a cross between the 'ancient' type cockatoo and the more 'modern' type which tends to have a longer beak and flared out plume, albeit narrower in total width. to be continued...

22nd July 2007, 08:06 AM	#5
Jazz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 44	continuation: It's possible that the handle is not original to the blade, but I would dare say that's highly unlikely. Another evidence that this was an older sword is how the length of the handle is smaller than the more 'recent' krisses. Yes, there's a possibility that it could be a boy's kriss, but one must remember that people a few hundred years ago were slightly smaller than their present day counterpart, not unlike us compared to our predessesor in this country a century or so ago. Now here's the best part: the inlays on the blade. I have seen some of the more common designs and patterns in this forum, but I can't find a single pattern similar to the one on this kriss. I'm preplexed as to what it signify, half guessing that perhaps it represents the scales of a snake. But what's throwing me off are what's on the tip of these inlays. Please note that it's not in mirror image on both sides, a common trait with decorative inlays, rather it's two different designs altogether. I'm not really familiar with the native writings of that era, but i'm half guessing it's either jawi, and if it is, it's someone's name (original owner? sword's name?), OR some type of symbol related to the beliefs of the culture at that time. Another curve ball is the fact that if the blade represent a snake in motion, and the inlays are scale, then why would the handle represent a bird's head, as we now take for granted? As far as I'm concerned, there are no mythological creature of this type in Moroland, a half snake/half bird creature. This is where I would like to hear everyone's opinion. From what I've seen and read from previous posts, there seems to be no shortage of intelligent members in this forum. Perhaps, by posting this here, it could be analyze or even identified by the house experts. I would really appreciate on whatever else comments that any of you can add. Otherwise, I think that it's a real neat sword, far cry from the replica and cheap swords that I ever own. Although this kriss is much lighter, I'm just amazed at the balance of this deadly weapon, still sharp from all these centuries. I realize that this is not really my field of expertise, so whatever I've written are purely my opinion, but nevertheless, I hope I haven't offended anyone with my writing. Thank you for reading my first post.

22nd July 2007, 09:31 AM	#6
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Jazz, first of all welcome to the forum Second let me say that i'm completly ignorant on moro arms, but I love them and I'm trying to learn more about them If I remember right Cato, in his book, says that the older blade are characterized by a line of separation from gangya and blade that is almost horizontal. In the other hand late 19th century and early 20th century blades shows a line with a degree of 45°, like yours. More, even if the blade rapresents the naga (with beautiful scales on your piece) it's not unusual to find serpetine blades with cacatooa handle. Anyway I will be happy to find such a nice kris also for twice the price you have paid !!!

22nd July 2007, 01:56 PM	#7
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Hi Jazz & Welcome. I agree with all the comments made so far. I'd guess your sword is between 100 & 125 years old. If you etch it, I wouldn't be surprised if a nice "marble" pattern didn't come out. These swords were made by a lot of different groups & specifically for ones preference. Some are so large & heavy, I wonder how effectively they were used. There has been discussion in the past about the smaller kakatua, smaller then yours. While some think it's a sign of age (& I agree, most are older), I think it is Indonesian. Nice sword & one I'm sure most of us would want in our collections.

23rd July 2007, 04:27 AM	#9
Jazz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 44	Bill, it appears as if the pommels on our kriss is identical; as a matter of fact, it is! what's your humble opinion in regards to the age of your kriss? I would be interested to know if you don't mind. Kai, very interesting observation. Yes, smaller pommels has been utilized in the 20th century, and by no means I'm inferring that it's an earlier century monopoly, it's just that this certain style somehow are more common with the earlier krisses. As far as the Maranao bulge: this kriss is interesting in that it's angled enough to be mistaken as Sulu, but yet the small bulge (see picture above) kinda threw it off, hence my theory that this is an earlier form of a Maranao bulge, IMHO... Please keep the comments coming guys. This is indeed a very interesting topic.