Another Moro Kris for comment!

Maurice · 20th July 2007, 04:32 PM

Hi,

I'm lurking for more info about my new "friend".
The more info you guys can give me, the better!

Rick · 20th July 2007, 04:44 PM

What material is the kakatua made from ?

The carving at the pommel base is unusual to me at least .

IMO an older blade than hilt .

Lew · 20th July 2007, 04:55 PM

This kris has an older blade but the hilt is a later addition 1950 or so. Does not look like the neatest job seems to have a bit of solder in areas.

Lew

Bill · 20th July 2007, 06:02 PM

Old blade but the hilt looks to be very receint, doubt it is Moro & likely just made. Brass on scabbard looks brand new also.

Maurice · 20th July 2007, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

What material is the kakatua made from ?

Hi Rick,

It is ivory.

Maurice · 20th July 2007, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

This kris has an older blade but the hilt is a later addition 1950 or so. Does not look like the neatest job seems to have a bit of solder in areas.

Lew

Lew you are right,

It has some solder in areas at the hilt.
It seemes to me that the loose parts (at the grip) are soldered together because they went loose.

Maurice · 20th July 2007, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Old blade but the hilt looks to be very receint, doubt it is Moro & likely just made. Brass on scabbard looks brand new also.

Bill,

in the ivory part there is a crack visible which they filled to restore (so it is not brand new).

The brass on scabbard was polished when it arrived. There were some rests of white polish on it (and the smell of polish).
maybe overcleaned?

David · 20th July 2007, 07:04 PM

My guess would be that the pommel and probably the hilt as well were married to this blade specifically for the collectors market. Certainly the pommel wasn't carved yesterday, but it looks like the latter half of the 20th century. Stylistically it looks a bit off and doesn't have the grace and curve of earlier pieces. Something not quite Moro about it, but that could just be in the level of execution. Are you sure it's ivory. Pictures can be decieving, but it looks more like bone to me.

The blade, as commented on, is much older, probably late 19th - early 20thC.

Maurice · 20th July 2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Are you sure it's ivory. Pictures can be decieving, but it looks more like bone to me.

Hi David,

I'm pretty sure it is ivory.
When you look at it in reality it lookes different as in the photos where it looks pretty white.
But I will let a good friend collector of me look for a second opinion to be sure.
Till then I have no reason doubt the description of the seller that it is ivory.

kai · 21st July 2007, 01:23 AM

Thanks, Maurice, for posting your kris!

BTW, what's the length of the blade?

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

My guess would be that the pommel and probably the hilt as well were married to this blade specifically for the collectors market.

The grip rings look legit but I also suspect that the pommel is a replacement; possibly also the brass ferrule.

Quote:

Certainly the pommel wasn't carved yesterday, but it looks like the latter half of the 20th century.

Some of the pommels coming out of Turgaya today look quite neat - this one is crudely carved and also the motifs don't seem regular okir. Same with the ferrule...

Quote:

Stylistically it looks a bit off and doesn't have the grace and curve of earlier pieces. Something not quite Moro about it, but that could just be in the level of execution.

The rectangular base of the pommel is weird - I wouldn't be surprised if it as well as the ferrule were not done by Moro artisans.

Quote:

The blade, as commented on, is much older, probably late 19th - early 20thC.

I'd guess at early 20th c. - it's a good, genuine blade which screams for a slight etch with hot vinegar...

Regards,
Kai

Bill · 21st July 2007, 04:53 AM

[QUOTE=kai]

The grip rings look legit but I also suspect that the pommel is a replacement; possibly also the brass ferrule.

The grip rings are machine made, you can buy them from large jewlery suppy houses (you buy by the inch) & the ferrule has been cut with a rotary drill like a Dremel. It appears to be ivory but I'm not sure what type. Because a crack has been filled does not suggest age, rather the project was started with a cracked piece. I have a Ivory kris that has fairly good providence that it was made around 1965 & already has patina. Someone went to a lot of effort & spent on materials.Everything but the blade, stirrup, & perhaps the wood from the scabbard is done within the last 5 years.

Maurice · 21st July 2007, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Thanks, Maurice, for posting your kris!

No Thanks, Kai!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

BTW, what's the length of the blade?

The length of the blade is 59 cm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I'd guess at early 20th c. - it's a good, genuine blade which screams for a slight etch with hot vinegar...

The seller told me it was 19th century (but you could be right ofcourse).

I noticed the blade screams for an etch, but I have to try finding out what is the best way of etching the blade. I am not familiar with that. Maybe when you have some time left you sent me an email how to do it step for step, and what time it takes.

Generally:
Thanks gentlemen for sharing all your vision on my "friend".

Kind regards,
Maurice

kai · 21st July 2007, 10:26 PM

Hello Maurice,

Quote:

The length of the blade is 59 cm.

A bit over 23 inches.

I'd love to hear wether others would place this as Maguindanao.

Quote:

The seller told me it was 19th century (but you could be right ofcourse).

Even sellers who know/follow Cato's classification tend to be generous and a pre-1930 blade is often referred to as 19th century...

The line of separation of the gangya as well as the file work make me think 1900-1930 as most likely period. I can't positively exclude a late 19th century origin though. Wether a blade got forged a few years before or after that turn of the century doesn't make a decisive difference regarding craftmanship IME. There are fairly "basic" mid 19th century blades and excellent early 20th century blades... IMVHO one always has to evaluate the craftmanship of any given kris (if desired) rather than going by any classification criteria.

Quote:

I noticed the blade screams for an etch, but I have to try finding out what is the best way of etching the blade. I am not familiar with that. Maybe when you have some time left you sent me an email how to do it step for step, and what time it takes.

You can do what you're used from Indonesian blades - short of Warangan, that is.

Here a short exposition of my basic routine (some info added for less experienced readers but far from comprehensive - please ask questions if not 100% sure!):

I start with any cleaning needed (fruit juice or vinegar), followed by any polishing (by hand) if needed. Wrap hilt with plastic foil for protection or, preferably (if possible), remove hilt.

Degrease thoroughly (important for getting an even etch); heat vinegar and blade and apply generously (careful: Moro blades like to take a bite!). Stop if the staining looks nice. Wipe off the vinegar with an oiled cloth and heat the blade to boiling temperature (not much higher!) for a few minutes - this ascertains that no residual vinegar/water is left on the blade nor in any crevices of the steel (to avoid ongoing corrosion). Be careful since this may be hot enough to losen the resin attaching the hilt if you haven't choosen to remove the blade to begin with (which greatly helps to ease things but can be unpossible without ruining old grip wraps which would be a shame).

Finally, oil the blade (let it "dry," wipe off excess oil) and/or wax the blade as preferred.

It's not rare that you can see some pattern but can't get it nicely visible (if the blade got polished with power tools, it's not rare to see no pattern to speak of at all). A few rounds of gentle polishing and repeated etching can do wonders in those cases...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 21st July 2007, 10:33 PM

Quote:

The grip rings are machine made, you can buy them from large jewlery suppy houses (you buy by the inch) & the ferrule has been cut with a rotary drill like a Dremel.

Uuuh, I glanced over the ring details; they appear to have been soldered into place, too.

I didn't want to sound too paranoid but Bill seems to be right...

Quote:

I have a Ivory kris that has fairly good providence that it was made around 1965 & already has patina.

Ivory often gets patinated which makes it very difficult to ascertain age.

Quote:

Everything but the blade, stirrup, & perhaps the wood from the scabbard is done within the last 5 years.

Yup, that's quite possible. Thanks, Bill!

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 22nd July 2007, 06:39 AM

HI folks - been away for a couple of days. ....I won't repeat what has already been said. I will say that the entire hilt is brand new - the silver work has rings that were made of cast pattern wire made within the past 10 years and then soft soldered, not the kind of work done back then nor of great quality. Also the brass work at the bottom is engraved - again not what was done in true Moro work and the engravings are poorly done. The pommel I suspect is plastic or some other material other than ivory. If ivory, not old ivory and roughly carved and done in a style not in keeping with Moro traditions of even the early 20th century.

I would be curious to see if the blade is laminated - ganga looks like it could be separate, but can't tell as easily from the photos. Sorry for the bad news.

20th July 2007, 04:32 PM	#1
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,352	Another Moro Kris for comment! Hi, I'm lurking for more info about my new "friend". The more info you guys can give me, the better! Attached Images

20th July 2007, 04:44 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	What material is the kakatua made from ? The carving at the pommel base is unusual to me at least . IMO an older blade than hilt .

20th July 2007, 04:55 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	This kris has an older blade but the hilt is a later addition 1950 or so. Does not look like the neatest job seems to have a bit of solder in areas. Lew

20th July 2007, 06:02 PM	#4
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Old blade but the hilt looks to be very receint, doubt it is Moro & likely just made. Brass on scabbard looks brand new also.

20th July 2007, 07:04 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	My guess would be that the pommel and probably the hilt as well were married to this blade specifically for the collectors market. Certainly the pommel wasn't carved yesterday, but it looks like the latter half of the 20th century. Stylistically it looks a bit off and doesn't have the grace and curve of earlier pieces. Something not quite Moro about it, but that could just be in the level of execution. Are you sure it's ivory. Pictures can be decieving, but it looks more like bone to me. The blade, as commented on, is much older, probably late 19th - early 20thC.

21st July 2007, 04:53 AM	#11
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	[QUOTE=kai] The grip rings look legit but I also suspect that the pommel is a replacement; possibly also the brass ferrule. The grip rings are machine made, you can buy them from large jewlery suppy houses (you buy by the inch) & the ferrule has been cut with a rotary drill like a Dremel. It appears to be ivory but I'm not sure what type. Because a crack has been filled does not suggest age, rather the project was started with a cracked piece. I have a Ivory kris that has fairly good providence that it was made around 1965 & already has patina. Someone went to a lot of effort & spent on materials.Everything but the blade, stirrup, & perhaps the wood from the scabbard is done within the last 5 years.

22nd July 2007, 06:39 AM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	HI folks - been away for a couple of days. ....I won't repeat what has already been said. I will say that the entire hilt is brand new - the silver work has rings that were made of cast pattern wire made within the past 10 years and then soft soldered, not the kind of work done back then nor of great quality. Also the brass work at the bottom is engraved - again not what was done in true Moro work and the engravings are poorly done. The pommel I suspect is plastic or some other material other than ivory. If ivory, not old ivory and roughly carved and done in a style not in keeping with Moro traditions of even the early 20th century. I would be curious to see if the blade is laminated - ganga looks like it could be separate, but can't tell as easily from the photos. Sorry for the bad news.