Chinese dagger for comment

josh stout · 18th July 2007, 05:37 PM

The blade seems a bit rough and not well finished, and the fullers are also shallow and not well made. I have a dagger made around 1990 for everyday use from the Tibetan/Chinese border region and it is quite different. The scabbard is plain brass with no designs, while the blade is thick and solid and well made with deeply cut fullers. The tang runs through the solid metal handle and is peened at the end. The point is also much less hurried looking. Even in the early 90s when there were no Westerners traveling in the area and not even that many Han Chinese, there were many knives in the market that looked like this (according to hearsay). They were not exactly tourist pieces, but perhaps more for status and show than use. Now of course eBay is flooded with such stuff.

Can anyone comment on the pommel style of this blade? It looks like a copy of Bhutanese styles to me.
Josh

Bill M · 18th July 2007, 06:13 PM

Hi Josh,

I got this from LionsGate at the Baltimore Arms Show. He said it was Bhutanese. Can you tell us the differences in Bhutanese and Tibetan?

Thanks, Bill

Lew · 18th July 2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Hi Josh,

I got this from LionsGate at the Baltimore Arms Show. He said it was Bhutanese. Can you tell us the differences in Bhutanese and Tibetan?

Thanks, Bill

Bill

Tibet borders on Bhutan to the north east and north west so the lines start to get a little blurred when looking at these types of daggers.

Lew

Bill M · 18th July 2007, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Bill

Tibet borders on Bhutan to the north east and north west so the lines start to get a little blurred when looking at these types of daggers.

Lew

This is why I wondered how some sellers seem to say with such certainty it is Tibetan or Bhutanese.

Bill M · 18th July 2007, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Bill

Tibet borders on Bhutan to the north east and north west so the lines start to get a little blurred when looking at these types of daggers.

Lew

This is why I wondered how some sellers seem to say with such certainty it is Tibetan or Bhutanese.

josh stout · 19th July 2007, 04:56 PM

Well that last dagger has several elements that identify it as Bhutanese. The pommel is absolutely typical, and the blade looks like the hairpin folding has been highlighted with narrow shallow grooves which are also associated with Bhutanese styles. A classical Tibetan dagger would have the trefoil pommel, and very distinct dark and light lines of hairpin folding without grooves. That said, there are many mixtures of the two styles, and within the region of Tibetan influence there are many pommel styles beyond the trefoil. In "Warriors of the Himalayas" there are Tibetan swords with grooves cut in the blade, though they still look a bit fatter than most Bhutanese styles. Also in Phuntsho Rapten's "Patag-the symbol of heroes" there are several different styles of blades, ranging from those with no grooves to wide grooves to narrow grooves. In addition, Rapten mentions a trade with Tibet in Bhutanese pommels (price=one mule). Undoubtedly blades were also traded back and forth.

So while there are many areas of uncertainty, the last dagger has purely Bhutanese elements in a cohesive unit that is easily recognizable as Bhutanese. I would say the same about many Tibetan daggers.

About the first two daggers posted: I tried to convey the sense that while the fittings look like more energy was put into them than the blade, I would not at all assume they were meant for tourists or were never used. The first one shows quite a mixture of styles with a vaguely Bhutanese looking pommel, Chinese characters, and Tibetan brass work. The fullers have decorative lines at the ends similar to the "Unusual Tibetan saber" I recently posted. That saber also shows several influences. The brass work on the second dagger is better than the first, with a pommel that is even further evolved from a classic Bhutanese look. But once again, it looks like less time was spent on the blade than the fittings. This does not mean it could not have been used, just that use was secondary to show.

In the last dagger from Bhutan, is the tang peened at the pommel? It is something I have wondered about, and it does not show up in the usual pictures.
Josh

josh stout · 27th July 2007, 08:13 PM

Here is an example of a "Bhutanese" dagger with a more debatable origin. It shows the Bhutanese style handle, but in a form more similar to ones such as the first two posted. I wonder if it is not a Tibetan copy of a Bhutanese dagger.

http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/swords/?subpage=1414

Josh

Tim Simmons · 27th July 2007, 08:47 PM

I have had a few of these when they were not in vogue a decade back or so. I like the one Bill post. Even old ones are not very old if you research the British encroachment into Butuan and Tibet. These fancy scabbard ones to me are very suspect and I would have nothing to do with them. I am kicking myself for parting with what I had. At the time nobody was that interested. That's life

.

Henk · 18th July 2007, 06:27 PM

Bill,

That are some nice and better examples.

Josh,

The one I picked up didn't come from ebay. But that statement means nothing at all.

The tang of the knife runs trough the handle and is also peened at the end. The blade is thick and sturdy and still rather sharp. I can see traces of sharpening at the edge and the edge has some blunts as it was used to cut something with it.

18th July 2007, 06:13 PM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Hi Josh, I got this from LionsGate at the Baltimore Arms Show. He said it was Bhutanese. Can you tell us the differences in Bhutanese and Tibetan? Thanks, Bill Attached Images

18th July 2007, 06:27 PM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Bill, That are some nice and better examples. Josh, The one I picked up didn't come from ebay. But that statement means nothing at all. The tang of the knife runs trough the handle and is also peened at the end. The blade is thick and sturdy and still rather sharp. I can see traces of sharpening at the edge and the edge has some blunts as it was used to cut something with it. Last edited by Henk; 18th July 2007 at 06:38 PM.

18th July 2007, 05:37 PM	#1
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	The blade seems a bit rough and not well finished, and the fullers are also shallow and not well made. I have a dagger made around 1990 for everyday use from the Tibetan/Chinese border region and it is quite different. The scabbard is plain brass with no designs, while the blade is thick and solid and well made with deeply cut fullers. The tang runs through the solid metal handle and is peened at the end. The point is also much less hurried looking. Even in the early 90s when there were no Westerners traveling in the area and not even that many Han Chinese, there were many knives in the market that looked like this (according to hearsay). They were not exactly tourist pieces, but perhaps more for status and show than use. Now of course eBay is flooded with such stuff. Can anyone comment on the pommel style of this blade? It looks like a copy of Bhutanese styles to me. Josh

19th July 2007, 04:56 PM	#6
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Well that last dagger has several elements that identify it as Bhutanese. The pommel is absolutely typical, and the blade looks like the hairpin folding has been highlighted with narrow shallow grooves which are also associated with Bhutanese styles. A classical Tibetan dagger would have the trefoil pommel, and very distinct dark and light lines of hairpin folding without grooves. That said, there are many mixtures of the two styles, and within the region of Tibetan influence there are many pommel styles beyond the trefoil. In "Warriors of the Himalayas" there are Tibetan swords with grooves cut in the blade, though they still look a bit fatter than most Bhutanese styles. Also in Phuntsho Rapten's "Patag-the symbol of heroes" there are several different styles of blades, ranging from those with no grooves to wide grooves to narrow grooves. In addition, Rapten mentions a trade with Tibet in Bhutanese pommels (price=one mule). Undoubtedly blades were also traded back and forth. So while there are many areas of uncertainty, the last dagger has purely Bhutanese elements in a cohesive unit that is easily recognizable as Bhutanese. I would say the same about many Tibetan daggers. About the first two daggers posted: I tried to convey the sense that while the fittings look like more energy was put into them than the blade, I would not at all assume they were meant for tourists or were never used. The first one shows quite a mixture of styles with a vaguely Bhutanese looking pommel, Chinese characters, and Tibetan brass work. The fullers have decorative lines at the ends similar to the "Unusual Tibetan saber" I recently posted. That saber also shows several influences. The brass work on the second dagger is better than the first, with a pommel that is even further evolved from a classic Bhutanese look. But once again, it looks like less time was spent on the blade than the fittings. This does not mean it could not have been used, just that use was secondary to show. In the last dagger from Bhutan, is the tang peened at the pommel? It is something I have wondered about, and it does not show up in the usual pictures. Josh

27th July 2007, 08:13 PM	#7
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Here is an example of a "Bhutanese" dagger with a more debatable origin. It shows the Bhutanese style handle, but in a form more similar to ones such as the first two posted. I wonder if it is not a Tibetan copy of a Bhutanese dagger. http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/swords/?subpage=1414 Josh

27th July 2007, 08:47 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	I have had a few of these when they were not in vogue a decade back or so. I like the one Bill post. Even old ones are not very old if you research the British encroachment into Butuan and Tibet. These fancy scabbard ones to me are very suspect and I would have nothing to do with them. I am kicking myself for parting with what I had. At the time nobody was that interested. That's life .