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18th July 2007, 05:39 AM
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Location: Singapore
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Majapahit is a Javanese-Hindu kingdom, it's empus are Hindus too. Many symbolism in the keris are Hindu inspired. Most likely the 'beings' within are too... (speculating). Keris in the Malayan Peninsular have many influences from different belief system... the malay keris are likewise... I find it rather disturbing... emphasizing that keris is Islamic. What I do believe... names can be changed... ideals modified to follow suit... For those whom are of different belief system, one would treat the keris within their own cultural/religious context... Quote:
 Alan, you've made keris blades, care to elaborate, please? Last edited by Alam Shah; 18th July 2007 at 09:55 AM. Reason: spelling |
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18th July 2007, 06:41 AM
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#2 |
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 7,082
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Thanks for the invite Alam Shah, but I'm going to stay out of this one.
Being a man who loves peace, and having a personal life that requires me to co-exist in harmony with Muslims, Taoists, Buddhists, Russian Orthodox, and devout atheists, I have learnt that debate about anything that somebody else firmly believes is a total waste of time. All religions are belief systems. I will walk 20 miles to avoid any sort of debate that touches on religion. My response to all of Sepokal's post would simply be that he is entitled to believe whatever he wishes to believe. There is no profit for any of us in arguing for a different point of view. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 18th July 2007 at 09:03 AM. |
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18th July 2007, 08:11 AM
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#3 | |
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Posts: 8
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Regards, sepokal |
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18th July 2007, 08:01 AM
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#4 | |
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Posts: 8
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Again I reiterate, it is not the artistic form that come first into making a Malay keris. First and foremost, it is a weapon. Artistic impression and artistitic interpretation is based on those who views it and as they say, Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What you call artistic, is not to some. While you consider the extreme curves on a keris to be beautiful, some might not view it so. Regarding Keris Majapahit. Have you ever seen a real keris Majapahit? Read again what Bambang says about keris Majapahit / Keris Sajen. "Keris sajen dibuat khusus untuk keperluan sesaji tetapi ada yang menyebutnya sebagai keris Majapahit padahal keris Majapahit bentuknya indah dan mutunya tinggi, tidak sederhana seperti keris Sajen." in English, "Keris Sajen is made especially for "sesaji" but some calls it Keris Majapahit while that is not so as keris Majapahit is much more beautiful and of higher quality as compared to keris Sesaji". My question is, then, what really is keris Majapahit? How does it looks like?  The last Majapahit kingdom was located in what we called Kelantan right now. There is nothing disturbing about Islam and Keris. Why is such thoughts, exist I wonder? Disturbing to Islam or that to Keris? Alam Shah, pamor that exist in most Javanese keris are based on made belief too. I guess, it will always be part and parcel of keris lovers to go through this "made belief" stories.  Regards, sepokal |
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18th July 2007, 09:52 AM
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Hmmm... I re-read through my post again and I was wondering... did I ever mentioned or imply that artistic form comes first? Please re-read my post... what I've said was... if you look you'll find an artistic expression... crude but it's there. Keris in the Malay world is first and foremost a weapon, period. Quote:
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Last edited by Alam Shah; 18th July 2007 at 11:01 AM. |
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18th July 2007, 11:28 AM
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#6 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 401
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Dear Kerislovers,
To say that keris comes from Hindu / Animistic culture per se is not quite accurate. If my mind serves correctly, Hinduism came to the Indian continent from the Aryans diasphora, and the present day true Aryans are Farsi people (people of Iran). So, there's a possibility that keris culture was brought to the Malay Archipelago by Iskandar Zulkarnaen (King Darius I) descendants after they had embraced Islam. In another word, It could also be Persian / Islamic Culture imbued in the early Islamic Malay kingdom of Champa in the 12th C. Thus the spiritual aspects are also partly Islamic. Just my 0.02 cents. Warmest Salam & regards, Penangsang |
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18th July 2007, 02:26 PM
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#7 |
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Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,250
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Sepokal, i hope you will go back, re-read what i and others have said, and try to find a better understanding in it.
Nowhere do i even suggest that it is inappropriate to discuss Malay keris (due to it's connection to Islam) nor am i uncomfortable with the discussion of keris and Islam either. In fact i encourage such discussion as it is obvious that in much of Indonesian and on the peninsula the keris is considered an Islamic weapon. I personally do not believe that the keris originates in Islam however. I did not say that i believe it originates in Hinduism either, though this is probably in my mind. I am even willing to entertain the notion that the keris pre-dates the influences of both these great religions. What i am not willing to entertain is debate on which is the "correct" religious or spiritual path from which to approach the keris from. Why this idea should translate in your mind into the idea that we do not or should not discuss Islam and the keris here remains a mystery to me. You are most certainly welcome to your own beliefs and to state them clearly in this forum. I certainly find nothing offensive about your beliefs or Islam in general (nor other belief systems for that matter). But what you wrote gave me the impression that you are not so tolerant of the beliefs of others that may be different form your own. Please forgive me is i have the wrong impression. Dogmatic thought that implies that your spiritual beliefs are somehow more "correct" than others will not be welcomed here. As Alan suggests, these are debates which cannot be won by any side and only leave the debaters angry with one another. They are wars not worth fighting and they wil not be fought on this forum. Period! I do suggest that if you want to communicate your ideas here better that you start by providing English translation to the terms and phrases that i listed at the beginning of my last post. It will go a long way in breaking down any barriers of misunderstanding that may have formed between us. As for Mojopahit keris, there have been numerous published examples of these keris and i am sure someone can provide you with so pictures soon.
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18th July 2007, 03:09 PM
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#8 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 341
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I personally don’t believe that the keris has its roots as an Islamic weapon. If someone suggested to me that Stonehenge was built by Christians I would likewise disagree.
I think there is more evidence that points towards an vedic origin than an Islamic origin. It is true that the Vedic culture was introduced to India by the Aryans so maybe the keris has an Aryan origin? |
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18th July 2007, 08:01 PM
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#9 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Posts: 29
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Greetings,
I agree that it’s great to exchange ideas but it looks like Tsunami has hit this thread… Sepokal – I believe in “universal cultural keris values”. Appreciate if you could elaborate philosophy of the Malay keris for better understanding complete with referencing link (if any). Others may not be able to relate them in comparison to the Javanese keris. Some might be too busy to take the effort to read up on cultural values of the keris world. Rick – I guess there’s no reason to panic. It’s only robust verbal discussion and not using keris or spiritual battle field. I’m sure that we will be able to forgive and forget with due respect of the coming New Year (Hari Raya Puasa). David – I would like to highlight that sometimes it is difficult to translate Malay or Islamic terms to the English Language. The meaning and idea may get distorted. Viewers might get the wrong perception. This applies to other languages for one word can take you more than 10 sentences to elaborate including examples. Pusaka – I like your creative thinking for always giving us time to reflect, pause and ponder. How did you derive with the above theory? Is there any correlation with Penangsang postings in the patrem thread? Is it possible for you to provide us with the factual referencing links? Sincerely, Hana P.S – The beauty of universal languages will enable you to open gates of the respective culture and values with your eyes wide open….Amazing indeed!!
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18th July 2007, 02:51 PM
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#10 | ||
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Member
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Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
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are there any archaeological findings, weapons of such nature or even one that resembles the keris... their weapons making methods during that period suggests otherwise...Quote:
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18th July 2007, 02:59 PM
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#11 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
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Just to set the record straight... I did not mention that keris is of Hindu origin. What I mentioned was Majapahit kerises are made during the Hindu period... Please read carefully...
Keris exist before that time as we've known already...
Last edited by Alam Shah; 18th July 2007 at 03:18 PM. Reason: grammar |
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