keris and spirit

Pusaka · 17th July 2007, 01:07 AM

Because a culture recognizes the existence of duality dose not mean it is Chinese yin/yang influence. Every culture on Earth have known and understood the existence of duality since ancient times. The western equivilint of Yin and yang is Sol and Luna (literally Sun and moon). Likewise the five elements have been understood by all ancient civilizations, it dose not mean they also got it from the Chinese.

Chinese five elements: water,wood,fire,metal,earth

Western five elements: earth,fire,water,air,quintessence

The concept of the five elements is also understood by the Indonesians if I remember correctly (Bumi,air,angina,api,besi.

Indian culture also have this knowledge. Thing is when we hear the concept of duality or the five elements mentioned people think it must be Chinese philosophy, completely incorrect.

A. G. Maisey · 17th July 2007, 01:45 AM

Pusaka, I have the feeling that your most recent post is directed at what I have written.

If I am incorrect in this, then please ignore my further comment, however, if I am correct, are you quite certain that you have understood what I have written?

David · 17th July 2007, 02:41 AM

It is indeed true that many different cultures have come to understand the universe and their environments with similarly structured systems of thought, but as Alan states, they all have very indigenous understandings through these stuctures and one system cannot be automatically substitited for another. For instance, there is, as Pusaka states, a system of 5 elements that exists both in Western European occult practices and in Chinese philosophies. But even if you examine the 3 elements that are common to these systems, Earth, Fire and Water, i beieve you will find vastly different meanings and correspondences to them. Yes, the 5 elements may have been understood by many different cultures, but these understandings do not necessarily amount to the same "truth".

Pusaka · 17th July 2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pusaka, I have the feeling that your most recent post is directed at what I have written.

If I am incorrect in this, then please ignore my further comment, however, if I am correct, are you quite certain that you have understood what I have written?

No not meant to be a response to what you wrote but more generally if during the manufacture of a keris the Indonesians consider the marriage of the dual natures of iron from earth and meteorite from sky it should not be considered Chinese influence. I’m just saying that many cultures have the ability to understand such concepts without consulting or borrowing from the Chinese, such things are universal and universally understood by all cultures.

HanaChu69 · 17th July 2007, 05:44 PM

Definition of Yin and Yang

Yīn (陰 or 阴 "shady place, north slope, south bank (river); cloudy, overcast"; Japanese: in or on) is the dark element: it is passive, dark, feminine, downward-seeking, and corresponds to the night.

Yáng (陽 or 阳 "sunny place, south slope, north bank (river), sunshine"; Japanese: yō) is the bright element: it is active, light, masculine, upward-seeking and corresponds to the daytime.

Yin is often symbolized by water and earth, while yang is symbolized by fire and wind.

Yin (the receptive, feminine, dark, passive force) and yang (the creative, masculine, bright, active force) are descriptions of complementary opposites rather than absolutes. Any yin/yang dichotomy can be viewed from another perspective. All forces in nature can be seen as having yin and yang states, and the two are in movement rather than held in absolute stasis.

Metal (Classification Elements)

“Metal, or gold, is one of the five elements of Chinese alchemy. The archetypal metals are silver and gold. Metal is associated with the west and autumn, the planet Venus and the colour white. It is believed to govern the lungs. It is associated with organization and stability.

Other qualities associated with metal are unyieldingness, persistence, strength and determination. The metal person is forceful and set in their ways as metal is very strong, but they are self-reliant and enjoy the good things in life. The element metal plays an important role in Chinese astrology and feng shui, the Chinese form of geomancy.”

HanaChu69 · 17th July 2007, 05:45 PM

Greetings,

I would like to highlight some points on the given comments. It’s cool to exchange views…

Pusaka – The analogy did not confuse me at all. If I place myself looking at the views from your angle, I’m able to relate per se.

Bram & Pak Alan – I have the same opinion with both of you. It could be that our mind set (school of thoughts) and “olah rasa” inner/spiritual feeling tells us differently. That’s the reason why our view on Ying and Yang totally doesn’t relate with the Javanese keris culture.

Penangsang – You are right, in principle; they are almost similar but different context. In Chinese philosophy, metal element is applicable to human being generically used in Geomancy; Chinese Astrology and Feng Shui. In Javanese keris philosophy, it is specifically termed to the spirit of the keris such as “Kiai Setan Kober” etc.

This is my perception. Do feel free to comment.

Sincerely,
Hana

A. G. Maisey · 17th July 2007, 11:49 PM

Thanks for your response, Pusaka.

I was afraid that you may have misunderstood the direction and intent of my comments, as I used the word "element" to refer to an element of a philosophy, and then you used the word "element" to refer to physical, rather than abstract concepts.

I now understand that you were making a broad ranging comment on universal cultural values.

Thank you

17th July 2007, 05:45 PM	#6
HanaChu69 Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 29	Greetings, I would like to highlight some points on the given comments. It’s cool to exchange views… Pusaka – The analogy did not confuse me at all. If I place myself looking at the views from your angle, I’m able to relate per se. Bram & Pak Alan – I have the same opinion with both of you. It could be that our mind set (school of thoughts) and “olah rasa” inner/spiritual feeling tells us differently. That’s the reason why our view on Ying and Yang totally doesn’t relate with the Javanese keris culture. Penangsang – You are right, in principle; they are almost similar but different context. In Chinese philosophy, metal element is applicable to human being generically used in Geomancy; Chinese Astrology and Feng Shui. In Javanese keris philosophy, it is specifically termed to the spirit of the keris such as “Kiai Setan Kober” etc. This is my perception. Do feel free to comment. Sincerely, Hana Last edited by HanaChu69; 17th July 2007 at 06:15 PM.

17th July 2007, 01:07 AM	#1
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Because a culture recognizes the existence of duality dose not mean it is Chinese yin/yang influence. Every culture on Earth have known and understood the existence of duality since ancient times. The western equivilint of Yin and yang is Sol and Luna (literally Sun and moon). Likewise the five elements have been understood by all ancient civilizations, it dose not mean they also got it from the Chinese. Chinese five elements: water,wood,fire,metal,earth Western five elements: earth,fire,water,air,quintessence The concept of the five elements is also understood by the Indonesians if I remember correctly (Bumi,air,angina,api,besi. Indian culture also have this knowledge. Thing is when we hear the concept of duality or the five elements mentioned people think it must be Chinese philosophy, completely incorrect.

17th July 2007, 01:45 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,043	Pusaka, I have the feeling that your most recent post is directed at what I have written. If I am incorrect in this, then please ignore my further comment, however, if I am correct, are you quite certain that you have understood what I have written?

17th July 2007, 02:41 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,227	It is indeed true that many different cultures have come to understand the universe and their environments with similarly structured systems of thought, but as Alan states, they all have very indigenous understandings through these stuctures and one system cannot be automatically substitited for another. For instance, there is, as Pusaka states, a system of 5 elements that exists both in Western European occult practices and in Chinese philosophies. But even if you examine the 3 elements that are common to these systems, Earth, Fire and Water, i beieve you will find vastly different meanings and correspondences to them. Yes, the 5 elements may have been understood by many different cultures, but these understandings do not necessarily amount to the same "truth".

17th July 2007, 05:44 PM	#5
HanaChu69 Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 29	Definition of Yin and Yang Yīn (陰 or 阴 "shady place, north slope, south bank (river); cloudy, overcast"; Japanese: in or on) is the dark element: it is passive, dark, feminine, downward-seeking, and corresponds to the night. Yáng (陽 or 阳 "sunny place, south slope, north bank (river), sunshine"; Japanese: yō) is the bright element: it is active, light, masculine, upward-seeking and corresponds to the daytime. Yin is often symbolized by water and earth, while yang is symbolized by fire and wind. Yin (the receptive, feminine, dark, passive force) and yang (the creative, masculine, bright, active force) are descriptions of complementary opposites rather than absolutes. Any yin/yang dichotomy can be viewed from another perspective. All forces in nature can be seen as having yin and yang states, and the two are in movement rather than held in absolute stasis. Metal (Classification Elements) “Metal, or gold, is one of the five elements of Chinese alchemy. The archetypal metals are silver and gold. Metal is associated with the west and autumn, the planet Venus and the colour white. It is believed to govern the lungs. It is associated with organization and stability. Other qualities associated with metal are unyieldingness, persistence, strength and determination. The metal person is forceful and set in their ways as metal is very strong, but they are self-reliant and enjoy the good things in life. The element metal plays an important role in Chinese astrology and feng shui, the Chinese form of geomancy.”

17th July 2007, 11:49 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,043	Thanks for your response, Pusaka. I was afraid that you may have misunderstood the direction and intent of my comments, as I used the word "element" to refer to an element of a philosophy, and then you used the word "element" to refer to physical, rather than abstract concepts. I now understand that you were making a broad ranging comment on universal cultural values. Thank you