keris and spirit

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Hello David, I know I am a bit of a wonderer but I do like to visit occasionally

I have always considered myself a bit of a wonderer as well, though i assume that what you meant to say is that you are a wanderer. Anyway, glad you wandered by.
Bram, i think i am pretty much on the same page as you and i certainly never meant to imply that magnetism has any traditional place in the understanding of keris spirits. There are many elements of my personal practice which have nothing to do with traditional Indonesian practices. Sorry if i confused you.
Pakana, i am not so sure that i would regard a chunk of iron ore meteorite "yin" simply because it falls from the sky. Place of origin is not always a very good factor in this determination. Man (yang) is, afterall, born of woman (yin). Infact, i would be much more inclined to consider meteorite as "yang". It is extremely dense stuff and hits the earth with great force and velocity. Very yang elements in my book.
I would also be very hesitant to say that the making of a keris is a "far more complicated" procedure than the making of a katana. If this had been posted on the general forum you would probably be hear quite a bit more about that by now.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

I have always considered myself a bit of a wonderer as well, though i assume that what you meant to say is that you are a wanderer.

BWHAhaha...yep thats what I meant lol

[pakana]

David,

I didn't said that a meteorite is Yin because of it's origin from the sky.I just said that a keris blade(with it's "resident") is consider to be yin(using again the chinese term) because of it's spirit inside.

[David]

Sorry...that seemed to be the implication i was getting with the concept of the combination of earth iron and meteorite being a marriage of Earth and Sky.
You wrote: The usage of metal was very important, because of the yin element of it. Together with the usage of meteor material,was literaly the "marriage" of sky(meteor) and the earth(iron).
Metal working itself seems pretty yang to me though i do suppose as an inanimate object any metal could be considered yin.

[A. G. Maisey]

In the National Musium in Jakarta is a lingga taken from Candi Sukuh. A big lingga, nearly two meters long, and five feet around.

On this lingga is an image of a keris and alongside it an inscription, which says in part:-

"--- the sign of masculinity is the essence of the world---"

In the Nawanatya (14th century) we find:-

"---the criss, a token of manfulness, has its place at the front---"

In old Jawa the keris was given as an award to a man for displaying bravery in battle.

The keris is a yin object?

Interesting thought.


May I most humbly suggest that it could be useful to refrain from mixing Chinese philosophy with Javanese and European philosophy.

All three schools require extended periods of study in order to gain an adequate understanding of the concepts involved; it is already difficult enough for most of us to try to understand Javanese philosophies, working from a European base. Let us not make things even more difficult by introducing Chinese philosophies.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

May I most humbly suggest that it could be useful to refrain from mixing Chinese philosophy with Javanese and European philosophy.

All three schools require extended periods of study in order to gain an adequate understanding of the concepts involved; it is already difficult enough for most of us to try to understand Javanese philosophies, working from a European base. Let us not make things even more difficult by introducing Chinese philosophies.

I think i must agree. Recouncilling these different schools of can be quite impossible. All one needs to do is look at the differences in the Chinese and European concepts of the 5 elements to see that aspects of these systems are not very compatable.

[PenangsangII]

Dear all,

I think we cannot discount the possibility of Chinese influence with regards to the natural balace of Yin & Yang. We are aware that the Chinese have sailed around the world long before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

[Pusaka]

In my mind a meteorite is yang, I can’t see how it could be considered yin. If you think of the analogy of fertilization then the Earth would represent the ovum/egg whilst the meteorite with its fiery tale would represent the sperm. A meteorite is yang (hot, dry, hard, masculine) whilst the Earth is Yin (watery, earthy, feminine) I think I have heard Indonesians refer to mother Earth and Father sky.

Spirit however might be considered Yin, so we have a Yin spirit in a Yang material, opposites attract?

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Dear all,

I think we cannot discount the possibility of Chinese influence with regards to the natural balace of Yin & Yang. We are aware that the Chinese have sailed around the world long before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

This is just another illustration on the Chinese influence on Indonesian culture. The first king of Islamic kingdom of Demak, Raden Patah (1478-1518), is the son of the last King Brawijaya (Majapahit) and Princess of Champa -- China. The Chinese name of Raden Patah is Jin Bun.

One of the 13 kings/queens and 2 rulers of Majapahit, is a real Chinese. He was Nyoo Lay Wa (1478-1486), after Majapahit was attacked and conquered by Jin Bun of Demak. The king of Majapahit at that time was Kertabhumi, the father of Jin Bun... That's only a few influence of Chinese to Javanese in the past. (See, "The Fall of Javanese-Hindu Kingdom and the Rise of Islamic States in Nusantara" by Prof Dr Slamet Muljana, 1968)

Ganjawulung