M a j a p a h i t R e v i s i t e d

ganjawulung · 1st July 2007, 06:15 AM

Dear Alan,

These are more pictures of two other book on keris. The first one is from Karaton Surakarta -- the big size book, consist of "kertas minyak" paper (oily paper?). And, the second and third fotocopy are from a book in Radya Pustaka Museum, Surakarta. I am still trying to translate the later book, from my Javanese philologist friend. The first one was published (but in roman script)for public in a very limited circulation or edition.

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 1st July 2007, 11:32 PM

Thanks for the additional pics Pak Ganja. I think I've seen a copy of the first one, but I don't recognise the second one. I might have have a copy of it, but I don't immediately recognise the style.

The trouble is, I have two filing cabinets full of original and photocopied old books and manuscripts, most have been translated into Indonesian, and I've read them all, but to find or identify something, unless I immediately recognise it, I need to pull everything out of the cabinets and sort through it.

Back 20 years ago when I was accumulating all this printed and written information I was convinced that when I had brought it all together and studied it, I would have learnt an enormous amount about the keris.

In fact, after reading it all, and spending quite a bit of time on some particular sections, what I found was that there is an enormous amount of repetition, a lot of imagination, almost no possibility of substantiation, and none of these writings can be found to go back very far in time.

Effectively, these old writings comprise recitations of elements from a belief system. Yes, they were interesting to read, and yes they do help to educate us in the attitudes and beliefs of the people who wrote them, and for whom they were written, but they do not tell us very much about the core nature of the keris.

I guess their value pretty much comes down to what it is that any individual person wishes to learn about the keris. For some people these writings could be extremely valuable; for others they can be something of only subsidiary interest, by which I mean that they provide additional knowledge on the way in which some people viewed the keris during one particular period of its history.

To draw a modern day parrallel:- Haryono Haryoguritno's "Big Book of Keris" has recieved a lot of criticism from a lot of people who do not view the keris in quite the same way that Pak Haryo does, however, in 50 years time his book will be viewed as an immensely valuable contribution to the art of the keris, whilst it may not recieve the same level of acclaim for its contribution to the culture of the keris.

It may be as well to bear in mind that whenever we read something about the keris, what we are reading is just one point of view of one aspect of the keris. Possibly there are no ultimate, all encompassing, answers.

ganjawulung · 2nd July 2007, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...In fact, after reading it all, and spending quite a bit of time on some particular sections, what I found was that there is an enormous amount of repetition, a lot of imagination, almost no possibility of substantiation, and none of these writings can be found to go back very far in time.

Effectively, these old writings comprise recitations of elements from a belief system. Yes, they were interesting to read, and yes they do help to educate us in the attitudes and beliefs of the people who wrote them, and for whom they were written, but they do not tell us very much about the core nature of the keris

This is because, the written culture is something new to the Javanese world. In the past, all traditions had continued orally. Oral tradition was the core nature of Javanese life for almost as long as their past history. It is much different with western culture. Written tradition is their long time culture...

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It may be as well to bear in mind that whenever we read something about the keris, what we are reading is just one point of view of one aspect of the keris. Possibly there are no ultimate, all encompassing, answers

What we must bear in our mind, that keris tradition in the past, is a "sinengker" tradition. Sometimes, keris knowledge was belonged to one person only or two persons only (between the empu and the king who commissioned the keris). Even empus in the past, had kept their outstanding ability to their death...

PenangsangII · 2nd July 2007, 04:15 AM

Pak Ganja & Alan,

Thank you and fascinating discussion indeed.

May I ask what type of dapur of the last keris in the illustration - the one without the dagu and having a bowie-like profile? I never saw this dapur before.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd July 2007, 04:44 AM

Pak Ganja, in so far as your remarks in respect of Javanese oral tradition, you are stating the obvious. I believe that all people with any interest at all in the keris and things Javanese would be aware of this.

The nature of oral tradition is that it is recitation of belief, not recitation of fact. Beliefs in any community change with the passing of time and in accordance with those external factors which impact upon the society which is host to the oral tradition. Because of this, when the oral tradition finally gets written down, perhaps 500 years after the point in time when it originated, it reflects not the original event or belief that gave rise to it, but rather, the cumulative effect of all influences upon that oral tradition, since its point of origin in time.

Oral traditions grow and develop and dependent upon the social environment in which they exist, can serve valuable social functions of moderating, controlling, teaching, the people who hear those traditions. Since the needs of a community are seldom fixed, but vary according to many factors, the oral traditions change to serve the needs of the community.

The nature of an oral tradition is that it is a tool that serves the community.

Thus, what we see in a 1935 (for example) record of the oral tradition is the 1935 version of that tradition, not the 1435 version of it.And most certainly not the record of facts that gave rise to that original 1435 version.

I am not discounting the value of the beliefs recorded in written versions of these beliefs, be they from whatever year, but I am saying that the value they possess is as a tool for the measurement and analysis of the beliefs of people at the time when the belief is written down. They are of little value in measurement and analysis of the beliefs of the people who lived at the time when the oral tradition originated.

As to the difference between Javanese and western traditions, either oral or written, this is a superficial difference in perception only. Western traditions and beliefs are manipulated and changed constantly, once again, in accordance with the needs of a community, or perhaps only the perceived needs of a community.

The thing that we must keep uppermost in our minds at all times when discussing the keris, is that it is a cultural icon that is subject to a variety of beliefs and belief systems.

Including the belief that "keris knowledge" was often the possession of a single person.

Yes, I agree totally, it was often the possession of a single person--- provided one believes so.

ganjawulung · 2nd July 2007, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Oral traditions grow and develop and dependent upon the social environment in which they exist, can serve valuable social functions of moderating, controlling, teaching, the people who hear those traditions. Since the needs of a community are seldom fixed, but vary according to many factors, the oral traditions change to serve the needs of the community.

The nature of an oral tradition is that it is a tool that serves the community.

Thus, what we see in a 1935 (for example) record of the oral tradition is the 1935 version of that tradition, not the 1435 version of it.And most certainly not the record of facts that gave rise to that original 1435 version.

When I was in secondary school, I was taught by my teacher about how "the oral traditions' grow. In a play, consisted of more than five pupils, my teacher whispered silently to the first pupil -- a short sentence. Then, the first pupil was ought to whisper his pal beside him the same short sentence. And the last pupil was ought to report to the teacher, what sentence he heard. And that was happened. The last pupil "reported" the whispers in very different meaning from the original.... That was only ten minutes discrepancy. Then, what happened if the "oral tradition" endured for a century, two centuries, three centuries? And not just for a short sentence?

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey · 2nd July 2007, 08:26 AM

Yeah Pak Ganja, I reckon that has got to be one of the all time favourite party tricks of people who conduct seminars---the number of times I've seen that trotted out at seminars and training courses is beyond count.

But that is only one of the factors. As I wrote above, oral traditions are tools, and those tools get altered to do different jobs, depending on the needs to the community---or sometimes the needs to the "bigmen" in the community---the power elite.

The traditions, stories, myths, legends, and the belief systems that surround the keris are all a part of understanding the keris, so we do need to be aware of these. But we also need to be aware of the nature of man and his societies.

ganjawulung · 1st August 2007, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

May I ask what type of dapur of the last keris in the illustration - the one without the dagu and having a bowie-like profile? I never saw this dapur before.

Dear Penangsang,
Sorry for neglecting your long time question. That dhapur is "cengkrong". Every cengkrong has longer gandhik (dagu?), sometimes more than half length of the blade. Some cengkrong has luks too. But if with luks, you must mention the number of luks: cengkrong luk three, cengkrong luk five (according to Bambang Harsrinuksmo's ensiklopedi) until luk seven... The form of the cengkrong's ganja is different too..

Ganjawulung

1st July 2007, 06:15 AM	#1
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	On Dhapur Keris Dear Alan, These are more pictures of two other book on keris. The first one is from Karaton Surakarta -- the big size book, consist of "kertas minyak" paper (oily paper?). And, the second and third fotocopy are from a book in Radya Pustaka Museum, Surakarta. I am still trying to translate the later book, from my Javanese philologist friend. The first one was published (but in roman script)for public in a very limited circulation or edition. Ganjawulung Attached Images

1st July 2007, 11:32 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,043	Thanks for the additional pics Pak Ganja. I think I've seen a copy of the first one, but I don't recognise the second one. I might have have a copy of it, but I don't immediately recognise the style. The trouble is, I have two filing cabinets full of original and photocopied old books and manuscripts, most have been translated into Indonesian, and I've read them all, but to find or identify something, unless I immediately recognise it, I need to pull everything out of the cabinets and sort through it. Back 20 years ago when I was accumulating all this printed and written information I was convinced that when I had brought it all together and studied it, I would have learnt an enormous amount about the keris. In fact, after reading it all, and spending quite a bit of time on some particular sections, what I found was that there is an enormous amount of repetition, a lot of imagination, almost no possibility of substantiation, and none of these writings can be found to go back very far in time. Effectively, these old writings comprise recitations of elements from a belief system. Yes, they were interesting to read, and yes they do help to educate us in the attitudes and beliefs of the people who wrote them, and for whom they were written, but they do not tell us very much about the core nature of the keris. I guess their value pretty much comes down to what it is that any individual person wishes to learn about the keris. For some people these writings could be extremely valuable; for others they can be something of only subsidiary interest, by which I mean that they provide additional knowledge on the way in which some people viewed the keris during one particular period of its history. To draw a modern day parrallel:- Haryono Haryoguritno's "Big Book of Keris" has recieved a lot of criticism from a lot of people who do not view the keris in quite the same way that Pak Haryo does, however, in 50 years time his book will be viewed as an immensely valuable contribution to the art of the keris, whilst it may not recieve the same level of acclaim for its contribution to the culture of the keris. It may be as well to bear in mind that whenever we read something about the keris, what we are reading is just one point of view of one aspect of the keris. Possibly there are no ultimate, all encompassing, answers.

2nd July 2007, 04:15 AM	#4
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Pak Ganja & Alan, Thank you and fascinating discussion indeed. May I ask what type of dapur of the last keris in the illustration - the one without the dagu and having a bowie-like profile? I never saw this dapur before.

2nd July 2007, 04:44 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,043	Pak Ganja, in so far as your remarks in respect of Javanese oral tradition, you are stating the obvious. I believe that all people with any interest at all in the keris and things Javanese would be aware of this. The nature of oral tradition is that it is recitation of belief, not recitation of fact. Beliefs in any community change with the passing of time and in accordance with those external factors which impact upon the society which is host to the oral tradition. Because of this, when the oral tradition finally gets written down, perhaps 500 years after the point in time when it originated, it reflects not the original event or belief that gave rise to it, but rather, the cumulative effect of all influences upon that oral tradition, since its point of origin in time. Oral traditions grow and develop and dependent upon the social environment in which they exist, can serve valuable social functions of moderating, controlling, teaching, the people who hear those traditions. Since the needs of a community are seldom fixed, but vary according to many factors, the oral traditions change to serve the needs of the community. The nature of an oral tradition is that it is a tool that serves the community. Thus, what we see in a 1935 (for example) record of the oral tradition is the 1935 version of that tradition, not the 1435 version of it.And most certainly not the record of facts that gave rise to that original 1435 version. I am not discounting the value of the beliefs recorded in written versions of these beliefs, be they from whatever year, but I am saying that the value they possess is as a tool for the measurement and analysis of the beliefs of people at the time when the belief is written down. They are of little value in measurement and analysis of the beliefs of the people who lived at the time when the oral tradition originated. As to the difference between Javanese and western traditions, either oral or written, this is a superficial difference in perception only. Western traditions and beliefs are manipulated and changed constantly, once again, in accordance with the needs of a community, or perhaps only the perceived needs of a community. The thing that we must keep uppermost in our minds at all times when discussing the keris, is that it is a cultural icon that is subject to a variety of beliefs and belief systems. Including the belief that "keris knowledge" was often the possession of a single person. Yes, I agree totally, it was often the possession of a single person--- provided one believes so.

2nd July 2007, 08:26 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,043	Yeah Pak Ganja, I reckon that has got to be one of the all time favourite party tricks of people who conduct seminars---the number of times I've seen that trotted out at seminars and training courses is beyond count. But that is only one of the factors. As I wrote above, oral traditions are tools, and those tools get altered to do different jobs, depending on the needs to the community---or sometimes the needs to the "bigmen" in the community---the power elite. The traditions, stories, myths, legends, and the belief systems that surround the keris are all a part of understanding the keris, so we do need to be aware of these. But we also need to be aware of the nature of man and his societies.