The earliest sabers

kronckew · 30th June 2007, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

An interesting hypothesis about the purpose of the collar is that it was used to accomodate for the grip in case an archer's finger was worn. Such rings were worn on the right hand's thumb and in a hurry, when taking the ring off was impossible, a normal grip would be quite uncomfortable, at least according to reenactors who have tried it in practice. To get a good grip in such a case, the easiest thing to put one's forefinger over the guard and in front of the so-called collar, the thumb with the ring lying on the guard. The collar serves to protect the forefinger from the edge. ...

i've found that with my 9c magyar sabre it is more comfortable with the index finger below the guard and the side of the thumb resting on the side of the guard. with the index finger ahead of the guard it's a bit easier to carry but the ring hits the guard and gives a less secure feeling to my grip.

the 16th C. hungarian sabre however, the ring hits the languets wherever you put the forefinger, the thumb resting on the side of the languet and forefinger ahead of the guard seems the most comfortable, tho i'd want to get everything below the guard before i had to parry anything...and with the 16c sabre i'd rather not have the ring on at all. maybe a hard leather thumb patch on a shooting glove would do. may have to try that some time. of course by the 16th c. i wouldn't be a horsebowman....

as thumb rings vary alot in thickness and even shape, this opinion may not apply to other types of ring, i find the ring is fairly easy to rotate with the forefinger to get the working part out of the way, tho it's more difficult with a glove on.....

my bronze thumb ring:

not having access to a horse at the moment, this experimental archeology was done on foot, (and melon targets do not fight back very well either) so results may vary

p.s. - while neither of my repro sabres has the 'collar', the edge is deliberately unsharpened for the 1st two inches from the crossguard as i DO stick my forefinger there on occasion, just not with the archers ring on.

ham · 1st July 2007, 04:48 AM

Nice complete example, Tim. Do you have others to share?

Ham

HorseNomad · 1st July 2007, 06:52 PM

Hi Ham,

I do have others, too many in fact. Been collecting early swords for a long time now. Will post pics when I get a minute, got a teenage daughter around for the summer... nuff said.

Teodor those are some interesting swords especially the Bulgar one with the pommel. I have one sword similar but it was found way east of that area, it also has a tribal mark on it. Interesting that the pommel on that Bulgar sword isn't much different in shape than the one on my sabre in the pic above. Looks like there are 2 type pommels, this one with the dome top like a can of Coke somebody left in the sun too long and another one looks like a lightbulb, like on the Magyar swords in the next pic you posted. There is a lot of variation in the guards and blade profiles after the 10 century but the pommels don't change much at all.

Tim

Kayahan · 7th July 2007, 06:48 PM

It all seems to have started with the canted hilt; it added valueable leverage to the straight, double-edged swords of steppe people. Inevitably, the edge to which the hilt was canted became the “primary cutting edge” in use. Then they started to shorten the “secondary cutting edge” where it had no practical use; in the beginning ¼ from the hilt was left unsharpened. When they realized that they could improve the cutting ability by giving a convex curvature to the blade, they further reduced it to ¼ from the tip and they come up with the earliest saber.

Is this a too short summary?

Jim McDougall · 7th July 2007, 07:08 PM

Not at all Odevan! the 'Readers Digest' version!!!

Nicely said !
The development of the sabre from the historical perspective is not only complex, covering incredibly vast geography, but lengthy periods of time with varying peoples and civilizations. What you have observed would be the plausible dynamics of development, and well suggests the 'why' of its development.

I very much appreciate this thread and the great illustrations and observations on weapons not often discussed among collectors, obviously due to the scarcity of them. Thanks very much guys !!

All the best,
Jim

ham · 30th July 2007, 10:33 PM

Tim,

Weren't you going to post images of further sabres??

Ham

HorseNomad · 2nd August 2007, 03:12 AM

Well Ham, I'm going to do better than that.
My wife and I have decided it's time to sell off the collection.
I am going to have a website done up but will wait a couple weeks. If any of the forum mebers are interested I'll give them first refusal, everything goes and I will include all the info I have on each one. Just email me

Tim

1st July 2007, 04:48 AM	#2
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Nice complete example, Tim. Do you have others to share? Ham

1st July 2007, 06:52 PM	#3
HorseNomad Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: D.C. area Posts: 8	Hi Ham, I do have others, too many in fact. Been collecting early swords for a long time now. Will post pics when I get a minute, got a teenage daughter around for the summer... nuff said. Teodor those are some interesting swords especially the Bulgar one with the pommel. I have one sword similar but it was found way east of that area, it also has a tribal mark on it. Interesting that the pommel on that Bulgar sword isn't much different in shape than the one on my sabre in the pic above. Looks like there are 2 type pommels, this one with the dome top like a can of Coke somebody left in the sun too long and another one looks like a lightbulb, like on the Magyar swords in the next pic you posted. There is a lot of variation in the guards and blade profiles after the 10 century but the pommels don't change much at all. Tim

7th July 2007, 06:48 PM	#4
Kayahan Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8	It all seems to have started with the canted hilt; it added valueable leverage to the straight, double-edged swords of steppe people. Inevitably, the edge to which the hilt was canted became the “primary cutting edge” in use. Then they started to shorten the “secondary cutting edge” where it had no practical use; in the beginning ¼ from the hilt was left unsharpened. When they realized that they could improve the cutting ability by giving a convex curvature to the blade, they further reduced it to ¼ from the tip and they come up with the earliest saber. Is this a too short summary?

7th July 2007, 07:08 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Not at all Odevan! the 'Readers Digest' version!!! Nicely said ! The development of the sabre from the historical perspective is not only complex, covering incredibly vast geography, but lengthy periods of time with varying peoples and civilizations. What you have observed would be the plausible dynamics of development, and well suggests the 'why' of its development. I very much appreciate this thread and the great illustrations and observations on weapons not often discussed among collectors, obviously due to the scarcity of them. Thanks very much guys !! All the best, Jim

30th July 2007, 10:33 PM	#6
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Tim, Weren't you going to post images of further sabres?? Ham

2nd August 2007, 03:12 AM	#7
HorseNomad Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: D.C. area Posts: 8	Well Ham, I'm going to do better than that. My wife and I have decided it's time to sell off the collection. I am going to have a website done up but will wait a couple weeks. If any of the forum mebers are interested I'll give them first refusal, everything goes and I will include all the info I have on each one. Just email me Tim