The earliest sabers

Jim McDougall · 29th June 2007, 02:51 PM

Thank you Lee for posting the 'Siberian sabre' which is exactly the one I was referring to!!!!

What a great sword ... there were some excellent discussions back in those early days (seems so long ago!) and we've come a long way.

While there has ever been various levels of discussion and research on the development of the sabre, the theories remain of course inconclusive and some interesting ideas have been presented over the years.

I agree with Ham, I would like to see more on early sabres, such as those posted by Teodor!

I have always been under the impression that the curved sabre developed progressively from the standard straight swords as the dynamics of the slashing cut from horseback was better served by such the curving edge.It would be interesting to know of such 'proto-sabres' actually existed, possibly the idea began in the fashion of blade sharpening of straight swords on the earliest . It seems generally held that the sabre probably evolved with the movement of nomadic tribes westward from China, possibly in Turkistan.

It would be interesting to have this better explained

and know more on the probable course of development of the curved sabre, and to see some examples (such as this excellent blade posted by Oriental Arms).

All best regards,
Jim

Oriental-Arms · 29th June 2007, 04:50 PM

Another one from the same lot:

Shorter blade 28 inches long 7 mm thick, quite heavy, with a clear thrusting spear shaped tip of diamond cross section and raised yelmen 6 inches long:

Tang with two holes and a short blade "colar" (Tunkou):

HorseNomad · 29th June 2007, 09:36 PM

Hello Teodor,

It's hard to make a distinction between geographical locations and peoples in the Migration period, I think in terms of peoples for that reason.
The Magyars, Khazars, Bulgars and a bunch of other people were mixed up together but I guess it's easiest to say Magyar for the 4th sword in the pic since the Hungarian museums have a lot of similar swords.

The straight sword posted-- that is a nice old one from east of the Urals for sure. I remember it was online a few years ago, been way over cleaned. Whoever found it should have left it alone. Anybody know where it is now?

The last sword on the pics is a real nice one too, does it have the hilt parts? If so it would be great to see them. Will try to post one of mine that is complete.

Tim

HorseNomad · 29th June 2007, 10:16 PM

Here's a sword from the same family with the hilt intact. It has a narrow groove running down the blade, you can see it up at the forte. Got lucky on this one, some original surface still on it

88 cm long, blade is 75 cm.

Tim

TVV · 30th June 2007, 02:57 AM

Lovely sword Tim,

I have blades from the 19th century in worse shape

. Here are some more sabres from a catalogue of archaeological finds in what is now Bulgaria. The first are considered Bulgar and earlier, the second group are conidered Magyar and a little later, towards the Xth century. One of them I believe appears on the picture I posted:

Regards,
Teodor

29th June 2007, 04:50 PM	#2
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Another example from the same lot Another one from the same lot: Shorter blade 28 inches long 7 mm thick, quite heavy, with a clear thrusting spear shaped tip of diamond cross section and raised yelmen 6 inches long: Tang with two holes and a short blade "colar" (Tunkou):

29th June 2007, 10:16 PM	#4
HorseNomad Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: D.C. area Posts: 8	Here's a sword from the same family with the hilt intact. It has a narrow groove running down the blade, you can see it up at the forte. Got lucky on this one, some original surface still on it 88 cm long, blade is 75 cm. Tim Attached Images

29th June 2007, 02:51 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Thank you Lee for posting the 'Siberian sabre' which is exactly the one I was referring to!!!! What a great sword ... there were some excellent discussions back in those early days (seems so long ago!) and we've come a long way. While there has ever been various levels of discussion and research on the development of the sabre, the theories remain of course inconclusive and some interesting ideas have been presented over the years. I agree with Ham, I would like to see more on early sabres, such as those posted by Teodor! I have always been under the impression that the curved sabre developed progressively from the standard straight swords as the dynamics of the slashing cut from horseback was better served by such the curving edge.It would be interesting to know of such 'proto-sabres' actually existed, possibly the idea began in the fashion of blade sharpening of straight swords on the earliest . It seems generally held that the sabre probably evolved with the movement of nomadic tribes westward from China, possibly in Turkistan. It would be interesting to have this better explained and know more on the probable course of development of the curved sabre, and to see some examples (such as this excellent blade posted by Oriental Arms). All best regards, Jim

29th June 2007, 09:36 PM	#3
HorseNomad Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: D.C. area Posts: 8	Hello Teodor, It's hard to make a distinction between geographical locations and peoples in the Migration period, I think in terms of peoples for that reason. The Magyars, Khazars, Bulgars and a bunch of other people were mixed up together but I guess it's easiest to say Magyar for the 4th sword in the pic since the Hungarian museums have a lot of similar swords. The straight sword posted-- that is a nice old one from east of the Urals for sure. I remember it was online a few years ago, been way over cleaned. Whoever found it should have left it alone. Anybody know where it is now? The last sword on the pics is a real nice one too, does it have the hilt parts? If so it would be great to see them. Will try to post one of mine that is complete. Tim

30th June 2007, 02:57 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,716	Lovely sword Tim, I have blades from the 19th century in worse shape . Here are some more sabres from a catalogue of archaeological finds in what is now Bulgaria. The first are considered Bulgar and earlier, the second group are conidered Magyar and a little later, towards the Xth century. One of them I believe appears on the picture I posted: Regards, Teodor