Bosnian Bichaq

Battara · 28th June 2007, 01:09 AM

Here are some other pictures including the maker's mark in the form of a shamsir. I see this on other Sarajevo blades of this period. Anyone know who this maker was?

TVV · 28th June 2007, 03:59 AM

I do not think there was only one maker. To me it appears that this symbol was copied in a manner similar to the eyelashes marking, and was more of a stamp of quality. On these knives certain inscriptions seem to have been copied as well. For example I have a bichaq with an inscription "Sarajevo 1894", which is almost identical to one in a small book issued by Hermann-Historica called "Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen KulturRaum". Note the 4th dagger from the left.
Regards,
Teodor

Rick · 28th June 2007, 02:46 PM

Here is my example of Bichaq and a close-up of the maker's mark.

Lew · 28th June 2007, 03:11 PM

Here are 3 from my collection. Two have the scimitar mark the little one is dated 1893.

Lew

Battara · 1st July 2007, 07:54 PM

Thank you folks. Very helpful. And thanks for the sharing for comparison. I just love green bone and ivory!

Rick · 1st July 2007, 08:02 PM

It seems that my example is the only one with a different mark.

All the examples shown , as far as I can tell, have a hardened edge; they are sturdy workmanlike knives.

TVV · 21st December 2007, 03:57 AM

I hope nobody would mind me renewing this thread wih new examples - my goal is to keep as much of the information in one thread for later reference purposes.
Here is a somewhat more unusual variation of this type of knives. Not as unusual as Rick's, but still different. It is similar to #11 from Hermann-Historica's catalogue, which is described there as a Bosnian dagger with lacquer filled drilled holes decoration and a more pronounced head (pommel?), with a simple scabbard (not pictured). Mine is without scabbard, but it would have probably been similar to the usual construction of two wooden halves encased in thin brass sheet.
Below I have it next to my other three bichaqs, and I have also tried to take comparison photos of the hilts. Finally, there are photos of all the markings - one is unmarked, two have the so-called "kilidj/shamshir" marking and the new one has a marking which I cannot name, since I am not really sure what it aims to represent.
I wonder, has there been a study of these interesting knives, which might give us some insight as to the meaning of the different marks and the decoration on the hilts. I agree with Jim that the circles and dots are most likely solar symbols, but would always love to learn more.
Teodor

Rick · 17th September 2020, 02:21 AM

I have seen so far not another mark like this one.

Battara · 18th September 2020, 06:19 AM

Ooooo............that's interesting!

gp · 10th October 2020, 11:18 AM

some further info on the Bosnian Bichaqs:

The handles are bone with ornamental inlay work of bronze and glazed ceramic. The graceful blades are single edge, mostly powerful 5 mm (3/16 ”) thick at the spine, - stout and sturdy carbon steel blade with an upswept needle-pointed tip with file work to the thick sphave one.

They have generally a tapered full tang - tapering the tang gives the knife a balance that can't be achieved any other way. Tapering the tang gets rid of unnecessary weight that you don't need. It also is considered the sign of a seasoned knifemaker; tapered tangs are associated with hand-forged blades.
Some do One side of the blade display a motif of "Kilij" (Turkish saber)

Ref.: "Islamic Weapons. Maghrib to Moghul" , by Anthony C. Tirri, p. 168

Added a picture of an ( rare ) example without the circular ornamental inlays

gp · 1st November 2020, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I have seen so far not another mark like this one.

I have seen a similar knife around but in a much better version or at least the decent standard Bosnian version with the kilij mark.
Please compare the handle / grip.

I can not recall exactly where but your mark rings a bell as I have seen it around before... could be as a Turkish or rather Ottoman one.
Could be that a local craftsman copied the Bosnian one and marked it with the Turkish / Ottoman cresent...

gp · 8th November 2020, 01:39 AM

just bought a bichaq at an auction with this description:

"Unusual 19th C., Asian Indonesian Malaysian Dagger Knife with Carved Horn Grip & Silver Mounts. Total Length (inside scabbard if present) : 10 1/2" Blade Length : 5 1/4"

Obviously it is a Bosnian Bichaq, a non K.u.K / non Habsburgian one but dated prior the occupation by Habsburg Austria , so before 1878.
My guess would be around 1850 /60 based upon exhibition pieces in Sarajevo I saw.
Now I shall have to wait until it arrives and clean it

Battara · 8th November 2020, 04:38 PM

Very nice! Unusual to have a hanger assembly on the back of the scabbard. Very nice workmanship on the front and throat of the scabbard.

gp · 8th November 2020, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp

just bought a bichaq at an auction with this description:

"Unusual 19th C., Asian Indonesian Malaysian Dagger Knife with Carved Horn Grip & Silver Mounts. Total Length (inside scabbard if present) : 10 1/2" Blade Length : 5 1/4"

Obviously it is a Bosnian Bichaq, a non K.u.K / non Habsburgian one but dated prior the occupation by Habsburg Austria , so before 1878.
My guess would be around 1850 /60 based upon exhibition pieces in Sarajevo I saw.
Now I shall have to wait until it arrives and clean it

warning :

I bought it from Sofe Design Auctions, LLC in Richardson, TX, United States yesterday.
Price $ 175 + 25 %
whilst the estimate was $300 - $500.
no minimum price.....so lucky me.....

Not so

as it just got cancelled and I received an email:

Please be advised that the seller has requested your permission to remove the following item:
Lot 406, Unusual 19th C., Asian Indonesian Malaysian Dagger
which you've won during Fall Antique Arms & Art, Nov. 7th, 2020 on Nov 07, 2020.

Reason for removal - clerking error.

Never in 30 years auction experience I met this...after 1 month a clerking error took place... just like the dagger was Asian....
So much for integrity...for an item that was weeks on their books and internet
Well s-beep- happens, so I'll sing an old Lizzy song

I am just a cowboy, lonesome on the trail
A starry night, a campfire light
The coyote call and the howling wind wail
So I ride out to the old sundown

Stay healthy you all !

Ren Ren · 16th April 2021, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp

Obviously it is a Bosnian Bichaq, a non K.u.K / non Habsburgian one but dated prior the occupation by Habsburg Austria , so before 1878.
My guess would be around 1850 /60 based upon exhibition pieces in Sarajevo I saw.

This is the only scabbard with a hanging ring. Or I'm wrong?

aspalathos · 5th June 2020, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Here are some other pictures including the maker's mark in the form of a shamsir. I see this on other Sarajevo blades of this period. Anyone know who this maker was?

Hello that letter f mean Foča, its name of old town ,where knifes like that was made.In that time they are produced on many places but Foča and Sarayevo was No1...

28th June 2007, 03:59 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	I do not think there was only one maker. To me it appears that this symbol was copied in a manner similar to the eyelashes marking, and was more of a stamp of quality. On these knives certain inscriptions seem to have been copied as well. For example I have a bichaq with an inscription "Sarajevo 1894", which is almost identical to one in a small book issued by Hermann-Historica called "Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen KulturRaum". Note the 4th dagger from the left. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

28th June 2007, 02:46 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Here is my example of Bichaq and a close-up of the maker's mark. Attached Images

28th June 2007, 03:11 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here are 3 from my collection. Two have the scimitar mark the little one is dated 1893. Lew Attached Images

21st December 2007, 03:57 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	I hope nobody would mind me renewing this thread wih new examples - my goal is to keep as much of the information in one thread for later reference purposes. Here is a somewhat more unusual variation of this type of knives. Not as unusual as Rick's, but still different. It is similar to #11 from Hermann-Historica's catalogue, which is described there as a Bosnian dagger with lacquer filled drilled holes decoration and a more pronounced head (pommel?), with a simple scabbard (not pictured). Mine is without scabbard, but it would have probably been similar to the usual construction of two wooden halves encased in thin brass sheet. Below I have it next to my other three bichaqs, and I have also tried to take comparison photos of the hilts. Finally, there are photos of all the markings - one is unmarked, two have the so-called "kilidj/shamshir" marking and the new one has a marking which I cannot name, since I am not really sure what it aims to represent. I wonder, has there been a study of these interesting knives, which might give us some insight as to the meaning of the different marks and the decoration on the hilts. I agree with Jim that the circles and dots are most likely solar symbols, but would always love to learn more. Teodor Attached Images

17th September 2020, 02:21 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I have seen so far not another mark like this one. Attached Images

28th June 2007, 01:09 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Here are some other pictures including the maker's mark in the form of a shamsir. I see this on other Sarajevo blades of this period. Anyone know who this maker was? Attached Images

1st July 2007, 07:54 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Thank you folks. Very helpful. And thanks for the sharing for comparison. I just love green bone and ivory!

1st July 2007, 08:02 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	It seems that my example is the only one with a different mark. All the examples shown , as far as I can tell, have a hardened edge; they are sturdy workmanlike knives.

18th September 2020, 06:19 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Ooooo............that's interesting!

10th October 2020, 11:18 AM	#10
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 823	some further info on the Bosnian Bichaqs: The handles are bone with ornamental inlay work of bronze and glazed ceramic. The graceful blades are single edge, mostly powerful 5 mm (3/16 ”) thick at the spine, - stout and sturdy carbon steel blade with an upswept needle-pointed tip with file work to the thick sphave one. They have generally a tapered full tang - tapering the tang gives the knife a balance that can't be achieved any other way. Tapering the tang gets rid of unnecessary weight that you don't need. It also is considered the sign of a seasoned knifemaker; tapered tangs are associated with hand-forged blades. Some do One side of the blade display a motif of "Kilij" (Turkish saber) Ref.: "Islamic Weapons. Maghrib to Moghul" , by Anthony C. Tirri, p. 168 Added a picture of an ( rare ) example without the circular ornamental inlays Attached Images Last edited by gp; 10th October 2020 at 09:48 PM.

8th November 2020, 01:39 AM	#12
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 823	just bought a bichaq at an auction with this description: "Unusual 19th C., Asian Indonesian Malaysian Dagger Knife with Carved Horn Grip & Silver Mounts. Total Length (inside scabbard if present) : 10 1/2" Blade Length : 5 1/4" Obviously it is a Bosnian Bichaq, a non K.u.K / non Habsburgian one but dated prior the occupation by Habsburg Austria , so before 1878. My guess would be around 1850 /60 based upon exhibition pieces in Sarajevo I saw. Now I shall have to wait until it arrives and clean it Attached Images Last edited by gp; 8th November 2020 at 02:14 AM.

8th November 2020, 04:38 PM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Very nice! Unusual to have a hanger assembly on the back of the scabbard. Very nice workmanship on the front and throat of the scabbard.