Tipu Sultan and the Tiger Head Pommel

olikara · 27th June 2007, 12:56 PM

Forgive me for my ignorance.

But, what would have been the purpose of the feature(looks like 2 parallel lines/notches) on the knuckleguard-quillon that I have circled in the photograph attached below?

kronckew · 27th June 2007, 01:33 PM

i see this on a few similar sabre hilts, noteably the one on this illustration appears to have that feature.

and this one:

just a reasoned guess:

the 90 degree corner there is a weak point & in a casting especially would require a radiused section on the inside as re-enforcement. the decorative lines may be just that, or as this area is also used to attach the sword knots (used as a lanyard to keep you from accidentally dropping your sword while on horseback, which could prove embarrassing in a battle) it could serve as a restraining device to keep the knot in place. many hilts of course have a slot near the pommel for this (like the heavy cav. sabre in the photo).

Jim McDougall · 27th June 2007, 02:42 PM

Hi Olikara,
That is an excellent question!!! and in all honesty seems like the type of question that should be asked when studying the features in hilt forms, but in the years I have pursued this, nobody has ever noted it including me

On military swords, they typically follow a pattern which has a basic design and often with very subtle variations or features that seemed to have a degree of consistancy with individual makers who contracted to the govt.
The British M1796 light cavalry sabre for other ranks was one of the first truly 'regulation' patterns for them, and while these sabres were inclined to almost monotonous sameness, the officers had considerable latitude in ordering thier own custom swords.

The M1796 hilts were typically of forged iron, with other ranks being of course standard, and although officers sabres were as described, often custom made, they too were typically forged iron and followed the guidelines in so called 'stirrup hilt' with 'birds head' type pommel (meaning a smooth rounded pommel which smoothly carried down through the backstrap.
As Kronckew has noted, that 90 degree turn at the bottom of the knucklebow would most definitely be weakened, and though I am far from any expertise in metalwork or metallurgy, it seems a reinforcement would be the most likely explanation.

When casting brass hilts, I am not sure if there are similar dynamics as I believe the forged metal is worked, while the cast is not. In the case of the brass hilts, they were cast from a mold, which may have been from the original hilt form itself in this instance. The feature, though originally structural in the original, would carry through in the finished product .

I think Krockews very astute observation on these being positioning guides for a sword knot is also well placed, and again an idea I had not thought of. On the original M1796 sabres, there were usually slots on the knuckleguard for these knots, with the purpose he had described, however I have seen more decorative M1796 sabres with knots placed as he has noted.

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 27th June 2007, 04:46 PM

Here is that feature taken to the extreme as seen on a Parang Nabur .

Jim McDougall · 28th June 2007, 04:02 AM

Excellent example Rick!!!
This clearly illustrates the inflences of European edged weapons on the weapons of indiginous people, though I am unclear on exactly where the parang nabur is predominantly found. It seems most references assign these to Kalimantan (Borneo), but I presume other Malayan regions as well. One reference notes these originated probably from 'cutlasses' or sabres of Dutch naval forces. What period would likely be assigned to this example?

In any case, the exaggerated application of this feature decoratively seems most interesting as it is imitating what is believed a subtle structural feature in the original European sabres serving as examples.

This fascinating hybridization of weapons is one of the most intriguing areas in the study of ethnographic edged weapons, and often reflects the confluence of traditional native weapons with regulation military weapons. The hilt in discussion here appears as noted, a classic example!

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 28th June 2007, 02:30 PM

Hi Jim,
I can only guess that it may be late 19th - early 20th C.

Jim McDougall · 29th June 2007, 02:24 PM

Hi Rick,
Thanks again, and I agree with your assessment on that. These were indeed most attractive sabres, and I am wondering if they developed from a basic native form, or developed entirely from the influence of European sabres.

Getting back to the sabre hilt in discussion, since the swords in southern India seem to have favored the use of brass cast hilts, would this be a strong indicator that the hilt was fashioned there, using the distinct British hilt features? intended for a British officer?
Was there any sort of resistance or subversive movement after Tipu's defeat that may have tried to organize against the British occupation? Could this hilt have been fashioned intended for an individual in such a group or faction using the weapons at hand including the motif of Tipu's tiger?

Olikara, with your knowledge of the events of these times, do you think that idea plausible? If so, perhaps the hilt was made with intent for an organized movement, and the plans terminated possibly with counterinsurgence activity or something equivilent. That might explain the absence of the blade (does it appear a blade was originally present in this piece?).

All best regards,
Jim

27th June 2007, 12:56 PM	#1
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 101	Purpose of the Notches? Forgive me for my ignorance. But, what would have been the purpose of the feature(looks like 2 parallel lines/notches) on the knuckleguard-quillon that I have circled in the photograph attached below? Attached Images

27th June 2007, 01:33 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	i see this on a few similar sabre hilts, noteably the one on this illustration appears to have that feature. and this one: just a reasoned guess: the 90 degree corner there is a weak point & in a casting especially would require a radiused section on the inside as re-enforcement. the decorative lines may be just that, or as this area is also used to attach the sword knots (used as a lanyard to keep you from accidentally dropping your sword while on horseback, which could prove embarrassing in a battle) it could serve as a restraining device to keep the knot in place. many hilts of course have a slot near the pommel for this (like the heavy cav. sabre in the photo). Last edited by kronckew; 27th June 2007 at 02:04 PM.

27th June 2007, 04:46 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Here is that feature taken to the extreme as seen on a Parang Nabur . Attached Images

28th June 2007, 02:30 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	As To Age ... Hi Jim, I can only guess that it may be late 19th - early 20th C.

27th June 2007, 02:42 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Hi Olikara, That is an excellent question!!! and in all honesty seems like the type of question that should be asked when studying the features in hilt forms, but in the years I have pursued this, nobody has ever noted it including me On military swords, they typically follow a pattern which has a basic design and often with very subtle variations or features that seemed to have a degree of consistancy with individual makers who contracted to the govt. The British M1796 light cavalry sabre for other ranks was one of the first truly 'regulation' patterns for them, and while these sabres were inclined to almost monotonous sameness, the officers had considerable latitude in ordering thier own custom swords. The M1796 hilts were typically of forged iron, with other ranks being of course standard, and although officers sabres were as described, often custom made, they too were typically forged iron and followed the guidelines in so called 'stirrup hilt' with 'birds head' type pommel (meaning a smooth rounded pommel which smoothly carried down through the backstrap. As Kronckew has noted, that 90 degree turn at the bottom of the knucklebow would most definitely be weakened, and though I am far from any expertise in metalwork or metallurgy, it seems a reinforcement would be the most likely explanation. When casting brass hilts, I am not sure if there are similar dynamics as I believe the forged metal is worked, while the cast is not. In the case of the brass hilts, they were cast from a mold, which may have been from the original hilt form itself in this instance. The feature, though originally structural in the original, would carry through in the finished product . I think Krockews very astute observation on these being positioning guides for a sword knot is also well placed, and again an idea I had not thought of. On the original M1796 sabres, there were usually slots on the knuckleguard for these knots, with the purpose he had described, however I have seen more decorative M1796 sabres with knots placed as he has noted. All the best, Jim

28th June 2007, 04:02 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Excellent example Rick!!! This clearly illustrates the inflences of European edged weapons on the weapons of indiginous people, though I am unclear on exactly where the parang nabur is predominantly found. It seems most references assign these to Kalimantan (Borneo), but I presume other Malayan regions as well. One reference notes these originated probably from 'cutlasses' or sabres of Dutch naval forces. What period would likely be assigned to this example? In any case, the exaggerated application of this feature decoratively seems most interesting as it is imitating what is believed a subtle structural feature in the original European sabres serving as examples. This fascinating hybridization of weapons is one of the most intriguing areas in the study of ethnographic edged weapons, and often reflects the confluence of traditional native weapons with regulation military weapons. The hilt in discussion here appears as noted, a classic example! All the best, Jim

29th June 2007, 02:24 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Hi Rick, Thanks again, and I agree with your assessment on that. These were indeed most attractive sabres, and I am wondering if they developed from a basic native form, or developed entirely from the influence of European sabres. Getting back to the sabre hilt in discussion, since the swords in southern India seem to have favored the use of brass cast hilts, would this be a strong indicator that the hilt was fashioned there, using the distinct British hilt features? intended for a British officer? Was there any sort of resistance or subversive movement after Tipu's defeat that may have tried to organize against the British occupation? Could this hilt have been fashioned intended for an individual in such a group or faction using the weapons at hand including the motif of Tipu's tiger? Olikara, with your knowledge of the events of these times, do you think that idea plausible? If so, perhaps the hilt was made with intent for an organized movement, and the plans terminated possibly with counterinsurgence activity or something equivilent. That might explain the absence of the blade (does it appear a blade was originally present in this piece?). All best regards, Jim