Pallash for comments

[Perkun]

Czesc WOLVIEX,
I am form Poland. I collect swords ever since I sold my record turntable to buy my first one when I was 11.
Over time I switched to strictly Polish bayonets and sabers.
As to the pallash it is an unusual one, the blade alone is 103 cm long, 4 cm wide amd 1 cm thick. Huge and heavy.
Markings are 2 haf moons facing each other on one side of ricasso, letter "T" with a dot above it in a shield on the other side. Markings suggest a 17th century Solingen (?) maker.
I posted it because I am puzzled by this one. I understand such pallashes were in short use in the 17th century but were quickly replaced bt koncerz (estoc).
Is this one one of those early ones?
I had to join this forum as the dialogues are first rate and I don't mind learning.

Hope you get better soon! I have more misterious pieces for you!

[wolviex]

Maybe I was to quick judging about 2nd half of the 18th century. But it doesn't look early 17th century to me either!

The hilt is closed, so it's not earlier than end of 17th century. But it's reminding me those hilts used in Poland with estocs. Anyway without book samples I can't remember for now how exactly those hilts looked like (Radu were are you!), but this one is with extra long quillon - next puzzle or it's just me ??

It would be great to see this markings on the blade - photo or drawing. But the blade doesn't looke like from 17th century for me - but I can be wrong !!, so I won't judge anything for now. 103 cm is not so long for koncerz and is quite long for pallash. Very interesting weapon!!

Let's wait what will others memebers write, and I'll sniff around this pallash next week, when I hope to get better.

Pozdrowienia!

[Perkun]

I am leaning to the late 17th century. I absolutely agree that the handle looks like those on Polish estocs, but I think much bulkier and thicker. Hard to compare never having real estoc example in my hands.
From what I can tell the blade looks hand forged, the markings are heavily stamped. I will add photos later today.
One other curious thing, the tip of the blade is rounded...
I have seen only one other example of such pallash, no fuller to the blade on that one as far as I remember. It was advertised as a "justice sword" and was adorned with engravings, looking much richer than my plain example.

[wolviex]

I think round points in pallashes are sometimes logically substantiated while they were use rather for chopping than for cut.

And maybe you're in possesion of an unknown Polish Hussar's Executioner Pallash

[Conogre]

While European weapons are usually on a "things I've read" basis, the possibility of an executioner's pallash wouldn't seem to be all that great of a stretch, particualrly when viewed in a military context.
As I understand it, swords were proper for gentlemen, officers and nobles with axes, hangiing and such often reserved for the peasants at large?
Mike

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Adam,
Extremely impressive entry post!! Welcome to the forum. Its great to have another addition to the contingent of Eastern European Hussars here !
For many years the arms and armour of Poland, Hungary, Romania and this sector of Europe have been obscure in arms references and considered exotica that could only be admired in museums and esoteric books. It is wonderful to have members from these countries who can share information in discussions on these and especially those who actually have examples in thier collections.
This example you show in the very exciting array of sabres is most intriguing.
The hilt does reflect the general form of Polish sabres from late 17th through 18th centuries in the perpandicular dynamics of the guard, especially the extended straight quillon, and the elongated rectangular langet( similar forms are seen in Zygulski's "Stara Bron" Warsaw, 1982, p.46) The integrated pommel and backstrap also reflect hilts of Polish form in that period.
The hilt on your example is quite heavy and somewhat interpretive, suggesting the latter part of the period described. What is most interesting is of course the blade. I have honestly never seen a blade of this heavy straight form mounted in this type hilt. I am very curious about the rounded tip as well, which as discussed suggests an execution weapon, although these examples would not have required a knuckleguard and it seems they always had simple cross type hilts.
Wolviex: could you possibly say more on these pallasches with rounded blades for chopping action? The use of the estoc (koncerz) for armor piercing thrusts is clear, but the use of such chopping action is puzzling. I have heard of unusually large swords such as two handed forms used to bring down horse and rider...could this have been the purpose of this unusually large sword?

Adam: Could you show closeups of the facing moons and the shield with T and dot? As noted, these do suggest Solingen manufacture. It is well known that Solingen makers typically used established and known markings from other makers and centers. The 'T' of course suggested Toledo, and the only thing thus far I have found with T and dot is Aguirre Hortuna de Nicholas of Toledo, 16th century ("Armourers Markings" Gyngell, p.81). The facing moons are interesting because these showed up as is well known on the takoubas and many kaskaras in North Africa, and it is well known that many if not most trade blades came from Germany. In studying the takouba, it is interesting to note that the native blades often have a rounded tip. Possibly a reflection of German trade blade influence, and these type blades?

Could we see more of the blade, especially the point? What is the length of the blade in inches ( no rulers with cm. out here in Texas !!)

All the best,
Jim

[Perkun]

Hi Jim,
The stats on this supermodel are: blade 40.5 inches long, 0.39 inch thick, 1.57 inches wide.
I attach more photos. The tip of the blade is not only rounded but the roundness is sharpened as well. In the pic. with a ruler please notice the gap where the blade has been worn from usage, Wolviex is right, it has been used as a chopping weapon (sharpened tip makes sense now too).

NOT a good beheading weapon, but very good for chopping from horseback the weight of the blade alone provided for a substantial impact.
NOT a good weapon for a foot soldier to bring down a rider, can't grab it with 2 hands, too heavy to fight with lifting it over your head, too uncontrollable.

Notice the shinier, even area on the crossguard, seems the thumb ring has been cut off at some point.

Conogre: Hanging was for criminals, thought of as a shameful way to go.