PI Weaponry in Spanish Museums

Marc · 4th March 2005, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

engar,
would it be safe to say that all these weapons are pre-1900?

No, you can't for all the pieces, but it's a very reasonable working hypothesis, at least for the Army Museum Pieces. The collection comes from pieces acquired by Officers coming back from service in the Philippines, and donating them to the museum. Them, or their widows/heirs. A few of the pieces have some kind of significance ("Keris used in the assassination attempt of Lieutenant Francisco García by a "juramentado" in Manila that resulted in the death of Corporal Enrique Vergara who died protecting his superior with his own body. Donated by Lt. García's Widow etc., etc.", this kind of thing), but the majority of them are just the idea they had on that time of what a "souvenir" was.

I'm sorry if I look a bit baffled by all this excitement but... you mean no one ever thought that if there was a place outside the Philippines themselves where these weapons could be found more ubiquitously, this place would be Spain?

Ian · 4th March 2005, 03:11 PM

Marc:

I think the surprise is not so much that these weapons are in Spain, but that they have been displayed in such numbers. Some British Museums, for example the V&A, have basically withdrawn their "colonial" weapons from public view. Many of the Indian swords that were used to illustrate the book by Egerton, and later the one by Rawson, are no longer on display -- although they can be viewed by special request.

So it is a pleasant surprise to see so many old Philippine weapons on display.

Ian.

Marc · 4th March 2005, 03:22 PM

Thanks, Ian.

The Army Museum is indeed a bit "peculiar" in its museographic plan...

BTW, the museum is being moved to Toledo, can't really tell you how much will be on display in the new location. The move is been long delayed, but should happen at any time, now. So, if anyone plans to visit, it better be soon...

Federico · 4th March 2005, 08:43 PM

I know for myself, that my appreciation comes from the fact that I will probably not have the money to do any significant travel to Spain for many many many years. I know Bob Cato spent quite a bit of time in Spanish, American, Philippine, and South American museums researching for his book. But, my own limits on travel make such an attempt virtually impossible. However, with the beauty of the internet, the Oceans have been bridged and someone who is as limited in travel funds as I can finally appreciate the wealth of information held in museums many miles away. The one thing though that I was really surprised at, was the late start of the collection. There are pieces in the Smithsonian collection that were donated in the early 19th century (Im forgetting the actual date though its well before the Civil war), during an American expidition into the region. I would have thought that there would be more pieces collected at an earlier date in a Spanish collection given the colonial history in the region.

Marc · 4th March 2005, 10:45 PM

Federico:
I don't know if I understand you well, but I would like to point out keep that Engar's comment about the 19th origin was intended for the Anthropological Museum's collection ( and there's no mention about at what point of the 19th century). AFAIK, the Army Museums ones are composed by different lots, each one with its particular story.

Conogre · 4th March 2005, 11:31 PM

One nice thing about a wealth of photgraphs this inclusive is that you can go back, time after time, and notice something pointed out by another's comments that may have escaped you the first time or few.....I can't speak for anyone else, but the first time I was literally overwhelmed!
Justin's comment about the "missing link", for instance, stopped me dead.....the Y-hilted bolos that he pointed out, although disimilar from the two "mystery swords/knives" do show a possible evolution when displayed next to the burongs, as these are.
It doesn't address by whom or when, but it is an interesting thought at least and would seem to lend some credence to the possibility/probability of a Philippine origin.
I agree with Ian ......I can visualize dwelling for hours in front of these beauties as if time had stopped altogether.
Mike

Federico · 5th March 2005, 12:13 AM

Hello Marc

Just surprised that a central collection point wasnt started till 1886 in Manila (at least as I understand it in Engar's post). I would have thought there would have been an earlier attempt at centralizing a collection of PI weaponry, particularly given at this point in history we are nearing the end of Spanish colonial rule, why the late start in revelling in colonial trappings. I suppose a justification could be made that the empire is on its last legs, one last attempt to revel in past glories.

zamboanga · 11th March 2005, 03:28 AM

Thanks Tom and John for the info on the chinese jians.

I remember having owned a similar styled blade before and the comment I got was that it was a non-traditional moro weapon made in mindanao.

Hmmm... We now have Chinese-made barongs, Tausug-made piras, and now Mindanao-made jians. Ahhh. economics, if there is a demand...

11th March 2005, 03:28 AM	#8
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	Item No. 4 Thanks Tom and John for the info on the chinese jians. I remember having owned a similar styled blade before and the comment I got was that it was a non-traditional moro weapon made in mindanao. Hmmm... We now have Chinese-made barongs, Tausug-made piras, and now Mindanao-made jians. Ahhh. economics, if there is a demand...

4th March 2005, 03:11 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Marc: I think the surprise is not so much that these weapons are in Spain, but that they have been displayed in such numbers. Some British Museums, for example the V&A, have basically withdrawn their "colonial" weapons from public view. Many of the Indian swords that were used to illustrate the book by Egerton, and later the one by Rawson, are no longer on display -- although they can be viewed by special request. So it is a pleasant surprise to see so many old Philippine weapons on display. Ian.

4th March 2005, 03:22 PM	#3
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Thanks, Ian. The Army Museum is indeed a bit "peculiar" in its museographic plan... BTW, the museum is being moved to Toledo, can't really tell you how much will be on display in the new location. The move is been long delayed, but should happen at any time, now. So, if anyone plans to visit, it better be soon...

4th March 2005, 08:43 PM	#4
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	I know for myself, that my appreciation comes from the fact that I will probably not have the money to do any significant travel to Spain for many many many years. I know Bob Cato spent quite a bit of time in Spanish, American, Philippine, and South American museums researching for his book. But, my own limits on travel make such an attempt virtually impossible. However, with the beauty of the internet, the Oceans have been bridged and someone who is as limited in travel funds as I can finally appreciate the wealth of information held in museums many miles away. The one thing though that I was really surprised at, was the late start of the collection. There are pieces in the Smithsonian collection that were donated in the early 19th century (Im forgetting the actual date though its well before the Civil war), during an American expidition into the region. I would have thought that there would be more pieces collected at an earlier date in a Spanish collection given the colonial history in the region.

4th March 2005, 10:45 PM	#5
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Federico: I don't know if I understand you well, but I would like to point out keep that Engar's comment about the 19th origin was intended for the Anthropological Museum's collection ( and there's no mention about at what point of the 19th century). AFAIK, the Army Museums ones are composed by different lots, each one with its particular story.

4th March 2005, 11:31 PM	#6
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	One nice thing about a wealth of photgraphs this inclusive is that you can go back, time after time, and notice something pointed out by another's comments that may have escaped you the first time or few.....I can't speak for anyone else, but the first time I was literally overwhelmed! Justin's comment about the "missing link", for instance, stopped me dead.....the Y-hilted bolos that he pointed out, although disimilar from the two "mystery swords/knives" do show a possible evolution when displayed next to the burongs, as these are. It doesn't address by whom or when, but it is an interesting thought at least and would seem to lend some credence to the possibility/probability of a Philippine origin. I agree with Ian ......I can visualize dwelling for hours in front of these beauties as if time had stopped altogether. Mike

5th March 2005, 12:13 AM	#7
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Hello Marc Just surprised that a central collection point wasnt started till 1886 in Manila (at least as I understand it in Engar's post). I would have thought there would have been an earlier attempt at centralizing a collection of PI weaponry, particularly given at this point in history we are nearing the end of Spanish colonial rule, why the late start in revelling in colonial trappings. I suppose a justification could be made that the empire is on its last legs, one last attempt to revel in past glories.