Thai "katana"

Joe · 17th June 2007, 10:25 AM

Under any other circumstances, I would've assumed that this sword was a modern Chinese fake.

But as long as the documentation can be verified, I suppose it must be authentic. A fitting gift for President Pierce, I suppose.

josh stout · 18th June 2007, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe

Under any other circumstances, I would've assumed that this sword was a modern Chinese fake.

But as long as the documentation can be verified, I suppose it must be authentic. A fitting gift for President Pierce, I suppose.

You sure are right that it matches recent fakes in the pattern weld, etch, and the look of the tip. Franklin Pierce, (a distant relative) is not well regarded by historians so it was indeed a fitting gift.
Josh

Andrew · 18th June 2007, 04:19 PM

Thanks, Mark!

Battara · 18th June 2007, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe

Under any other circumstances, I would've assumed that this sword was a modern Chinese fake.

But as long as the documentation can be verified, I suppose it must be authentic. A fitting gift for President Pierce, I suppose.

I'm with you Joe.

Mark · 20th June 2007, 06:28 PM

The provenance is well-documented. Presidential gifts usually are. It was not recognized by the museum as what it was until 1969, but once identified for what it was, the documentation/provenance was good.

The blade really is exquisite, however the fittings are in my opinion sub-standard in their execution. Perhaps King Mongkut did not think much of Pres. Pierce, either. The workmanship on the metal fittings is rather rough, and do not have a good "fit and finish" with the blade and the scabbard. The scabbard in a couple of places has rough cut marks, for example around the notch cut for the kurikata, and where the chape joins the wood of the scabbard.

Now I want to see what I can do in order to see the one in the National Archives.

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2007, 07:22 PM

Hi Mark,
Thank you so much for posting this and for the historical detail explaining the presence of Japanese swords in Siam. I have heard of the influences of Japanese swords and decoration techniques though primarily trade and diplomatic interaction in the East Indies in 18th century, as well as degree of such influence in swords of Vietnam. I recall in one reference (which I still question but cannot recall details) which showed what appeared a katana and captioned as from India with an odd name. While the India assessment was apparantly incorrect, the sword shown must have been of this group.

It has always been fascinating to me when a weapon as distinctly indiginous as the Japanese katana appears in geographically distant and inconsistant cultural spheres. It seems that even in colonial New England one inventory lists a Japanese sword, and then there is of course the photo of Red Cloud at the end of the 19th century after the 'Indian Wars' with a katana mounted behind him on his wall.

All the best,
Jim

Lew · 20th June 2007, 07:37 PM

I have a problem with this sword. If the they wanted to copy a Japanese katana why would they etch the blade so dark or at all? Mark is there any examples of Burmese or Siamese swords being etched in this way? The blade seems more Indonesian to me as far as etching and pamor is concerned. Sorry but it just does not strike me as old or Siamese. The overall fit and finish is not that good. I would think if you were going to give a gift to a President or king of another country it would be of finer quality than what is pictured.

Lew

Andrew · 20th June 2007, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

I have a problem with this sword. If the they wanted to copy a Japanese katana why would they etch the blade so dark or at all? Mark is there any examples of Burmese or Siamese swords being etched in this way? The blade seems more Indonesian to me as far as etching and pamor is concerned. Sorry but it just does not strike me as old or Siamese. The overall fit and finish is not that good. I would think if you were going to give a gift to a President or king of another country it would be of finer quality than what is pictured.

Lew

The etch is highly unusual for Thai or Burmese swords, in my experience, Lew.

Mark · 21st June 2007, 12:33 AM

I’m not sure what you mean by “problem,” Lew. If you mean that the sword does not seem genuine, the only answer I can give is to state again that the provenance is unquestioned. I completely agree that the fittings are surprisingly poor, especially for a presidential gift, but given the clear provenance, we just have to accept that oddity.

As I noted before, the blade does appear to have been made using the Malaysian/Indonesian smithing traditions normally used for keris. I am not by any means an expert in the art of keris bladesmithing, but examining the blade in detail showed it to be very well-made from the point of view of geometry (even taper, crisp lines, even surfaces, etc.). I did not see any forging flaws, cracks, or other irregularities (other than the patterns in the steel itself).

Why would a Siamese blade be made to look like a katana, but done using layered & etched pamor? I have explained the reason for the katana shape - Japanese swords were very much in vogue in Siam, and Siamese smiths often imitated them in basic form. I did not mean to imply that the Siamese copied (or tried to copy) Japanese swords in an exact way, but rather that Japanese swords served as a stylistic inspiration for Thai interpretations of the style. There are many examples of katana, or katana-like, blades mounted in a uniquely Thai style. Some examples are in this thread (photos from Punjabhan, "Silverware in Thailand," Rengrom Publishing, Bangkok (1991) ISBN 9748869563); the one in the fifth photo appears to be etched, but it is hard to be sure from the small photos. Other examples are seen in Michael Nguyen's photos of the National Museum in Bangkok.

I have to speculate as to why the blade was done in pamor, but there are several facts which, I think, makes speculation possible. First, the use of pamor would have been well-known in Siam just by virtue of the proximity to Malaysia & cultural and trade contacts with Islandic Southeast Asia (and remember that southern Thailand comprises a part of the Malay Peninsula even today, as it did in the past). Second, keris in fact were common as a part of Siamese court attire, and given by the King as a sign of his favor (see de la Laubere, "A New Historical Relation of the Kingdom of Siam" (1693), pages 100 & 168), making it reasonable to conclude that the esthetics of pamor where appreciated in Thailand. Third, other edged weapons in the Malaysian tradition were also known and used, for example the badik (see, for example, Dan Wilke's photos from the Grand Palace in Bangkok. From these it is not very unreasonable to think that a Thai bladesmith would have combined the popular katana blade form with the beauty of pamor, and come up with a sword such as this one. Etching the blade would not be at all unusual in this circumstance. The Thai, like the rest of the dha-using people of SEA, were (and still are) endlessly creative in making and decorating their swords, and there is a bewildering variety of forms and styles (including katana-like swords made according to Thai bladesmithing traditions, and dha/daab clearly made using Japanese swordmaking traditions such as folded steel and the use of refractory clay to selectively harden the edge – see this one, for example). This appears to be just one more.

tsubame1 · 23rd June 2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much for posting this and for the historical detail explaining the presence of Japanese swords in Siam. I have heard of the influences of Japanese swords and decoration techniques though primarily trade and diplomatic interaction in the East Indies in 18th century,

King of Siam had as his personal guards Samurai from Japan that were hired
as mercenaries. They proved to be extremely efficient and reliable.
They helped to settle a riot. The japanese sword was exported to Siam too.
Both things were earlier then '800

If interested take a look here :

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/...hp/t-8639.html

Scroll down a little and you'll find some interesting inputs.

The sword in question seems to fit the swords inspired to japanese
design, in XIX c. even if I can't say anything about the historical
accuracy as a present to the President. Seems quiet poor to me too...

What makes me wonder is the Tsukamaki (wrapping of handle).
Seems a japanese style. Too japanese, so possibly a fake or later
work.

CharlesS · 23rd June 2007, 01:10 PM

I agree if Mark had not provenanced this I would have ignored it as a fake(and even refused to sit with him at our next Timonium luch!!

), but there seems to be enough evidence here...and just enough oddity to it...to back up the story. I think what to us may seem 'tacky' or crude(fittings, etc.) may have seemed exotic and rare to the Siamese....with that it mind it makes perfect since to me that from their perspective they were sending the President a rare and exotic gift.

The lack of patina here does not really bother me, afterall, this was probably accepted, cataloged, and stowed away, and I am betting it was actually handled very few times...probably more by museum folks than in the 19 Cent.

The thing that I find so fascinating and appealing about it is....what I love about that entire SE Asian region weapons-wise.... and that is the clear fusion of so many different cultures. In this case it may not have produced the most beautiful product, but just the attempt I find interesting.

ArmsAndAntiques · 27th March 2014, 01:47 AM

To kick up the dust from an old thread. I'm attaching a quote from a letter from King Mongkut to President Franklin Pierce in which he states that one of his gifts is "The sword or dagger (made of mixed steels of different colors) mounted in its case of the Kiew wood on silver richly gilt."

I can only say the King of Siam's English and penmanship is impeccable and that one would be so lucky to have friend like that...

Quite a nice sword.

20th June 2007, 06:28 PM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	The provenance is well-documented. Presidential gifts usually are. It was not recognized by the museum as what it was until 1969, but once identified for what it was, the documentation/provenance was good. The blade really is exquisite, however the fittings are in my opinion sub-standard in their execution. Perhaps King Mongkut did not think much of Pres. Pierce, either. The workmanship on the metal fittings is rather rough, and do not have a good "fit and finish" with the blade and the scabbard. The scabbard in a couple of places has rough cut marks, for example around the notch cut for the kurikata, and where the chape joins the wood of the scabbard. Now I want to see what I can do in order to see the one in the National Archives. Last edited by Mark; 20th June 2007 at 11:18 PM.

27th March 2014, 01:47 AM	#12
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	To kick up the dust from an old thread. I'm attaching a quote from a letter from King Mongkut to President Franklin Pierce in which he states that one of his gifts is "The sword or dagger (made of mixed steels of different colors) mounted in its case of the Kiew wood on silver richly gilt." I can only say the King of Siam's English and penmanship is impeccable and that one would be so lucky to have friend like that... Quite a nice sword. Attached Images

17th June 2007, 10:25 AM	#1
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Under any other circumstances, I would've assumed that this sword was a modern Chinese fake. But as long as the documentation can be verified, I suppose it must be authentic. A fitting gift for President Pierce, I suppose.

18th June 2007, 04:19 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Thanks, Mark!

20th June 2007, 07:22 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Hi Mark, Thank you so much for posting this and for the historical detail explaining the presence of Japanese swords in Siam. I have heard of the influences of Japanese swords and decoration techniques though primarily trade and diplomatic interaction in the East Indies in 18th century, as well as degree of such influence in swords of Vietnam. I recall in one reference (which I still question but cannot recall details) which showed what appeared a katana and captioned as from India with an odd name. While the India assessment was apparantly incorrect, the sword shown must have been of this group. It has always been fascinating to me when a weapon as distinctly indiginous as the Japanese katana appears in geographically distant and inconsistant cultural spheres. It seems that even in colonial New England one inventory lists a Japanese sword, and then there is of course the photo of Red Cloud at the end of the 19th century after the 'Indian Wars' with a katana mounted behind him on his wall. All the best, Jim

20th June 2007, 07:37 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I have a problem with this sword. If the they wanted to copy a Japanese katana why would they etch the blade so dark or at all? Mark is there any examples of Burmese or Siamese swords being etched in this way? The blade seems more Indonesian to me as far as etching and pamor is concerned. Sorry but it just does not strike me as old or Siamese. The overall fit and finish is not that good. I would think if you were going to give a gift to a President or king of another country it would be of finer quality than what is pictured. Lew

21st June 2007, 12:33 AM	#9
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I’m not sure what you mean by “problem,” Lew. If you mean that the sword does not seem genuine, the only answer I can give is to state again that the provenance is unquestioned. I completely agree that the fittings are surprisingly poor, especially for a presidential gift, but given the clear provenance, we just have to accept that oddity. As I noted before, the blade does appear to have been made using the Malaysian/Indonesian smithing traditions normally used for keris. I am not by any means an expert in the art of keris bladesmithing, but examining the blade in detail showed it to be very well-made from the point of view of geometry (even taper, crisp lines, even surfaces, etc.). I did not see any forging flaws, cracks, or other irregularities (other than the patterns in the steel itself). Why would a Siamese blade be made to look like a katana, but done using layered & etched pamor? I have explained the reason for the katana shape - Japanese swords were very much in vogue in Siam, and Siamese smiths often imitated them in basic form. I did not mean to imply that the Siamese copied (or tried to copy) Japanese swords in an exact way, but rather that Japanese swords served as a stylistic inspiration for Thai interpretations of the style. There are many examples of katana, or katana-like, blades mounted in a uniquely Thai style. Some examples are in this thread (photos from Punjabhan, "Silverware in Thailand," Rengrom Publishing, Bangkok (1991) ISBN 9748869563); the one in the fifth photo appears to be etched, but it is hard to be sure from the small photos. Other examples are seen in Michael Nguyen's photos of the National Museum in Bangkok. I have to speculate as to why the blade was done in pamor, but there are several facts which, I think, makes speculation possible. First, the use of pamor would have been well-known in Siam just by virtue of the proximity to Malaysia & cultural and trade contacts with Islandic Southeast Asia (and remember that southern Thailand comprises a part of the Malay Peninsula even today, as it did in the past). Second, keris in fact were common as a part of Siamese court attire, and given by the King as a sign of his favor (see de la Laubere, "A New Historical Relation of the Kingdom of Siam" (1693), pages 100 & 168), making it reasonable to conclude that the esthetics of pamor where appreciated in Thailand. Third, other edged weapons in the Malaysian tradition were also known and used, for example the badik (see, for example, Dan Wilke's photos from the Grand Palace in Bangkok. From these it is not very unreasonable to think that a Thai bladesmith would have combined the popular katana blade form with the beauty of pamor, and come up with a sword such as this one. Etching the blade would not be at all unusual in this circumstance. The Thai, like the rest of the dha-using people of SEA, were (and still are) endlessly creative in making and decorating their swords, and there is a bewildering variety of forms and styles (including katana-like swords made according to Thai bladesmithing traditions, and dha/daab clearly made using Japanese swordmaking traditions such as folded steel and the use of refractory clay to selectively harden the edge – see this one, for example). This appears to be just one more.

23rd June 2007, 01:10 PM	#11
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	I agree if Mark had not provenanced this I would have ignored it as a fake(and even refused to sit with him at our next Timonium luch!! ), but there seems to be enough evidence here...and just enough oddity to it...to back up the story. I think what to us may seem 'tacky' or crude(fittings, etc.) may have seemed exotic and rare to the Siamese....with that it mind it makes perfect since to me that from their perspective they were sending the President a rare and exotic gift. The lack of patina here does not really bother me, afterall, this was probably accepted, cataloged, and stowed away, and I am betting it was actually handled very few times...probably more by museum folks than in the 19 Cent. The thing that I find so fascinating and appealing about it is....what I love about that entire SE Asian region weapons-wise.... and that is the clear fusion of so many different cultures. In this case it may not have produced the most beautiful product, but just the attempt I find interesting.