Chinese sword: real or fake?

Philip · 16th June 2007, 06:58 AM

I'm a bit late to this thread, having just been alerted by Nick Wardigo. Someone made the comment that the fittings were not up to the quality of the blade. Yes and no. I believe it was Nick who opined that the scabbard is a later replacement of indifferent quality, and I agree. Probably a "field expedient" made quickly just to have something to protect the blade and carry it around in.

The hilt fittings were originally quite good. They are in the style and quality of the late 18th thru early 19th cent., with the archaistic dragon motifs in relief that started to appear on both gun and saber decoration as early as the latter 17th. The surfaces of the pommel and ferrule are extremely worn, blurring the design, but a good look at the surfaces of the guard show something of the original condition of the work. The wear on the hilt is consistent with the signs of hard usage evident on the blade before its restoration.

The cord wrapping on the grip looks to be in very sound condition, and considering the amount of wear on the metal parts, it is probably not the original. It could date from the time the scabbard was replaced.

Philip · 16th June 2007, 07:02 AM

There is no question that this saber is "the real McCoy" and is definitely not a modern repro.

However, a reader expressed doubts that this technique is used at present, and this post addresses this point only.

Yes, the "machi" (horse tooth) has been made recently by some Japanese smiths, following the tradition of the Gassan (moon mountain) sword school, which was said to have been founded centuries ago by an immigrant smith from China. Also, a contemporary swordsmith named Vincent Evans here in the US has made several Chinese style blades with this same equine dentition.

Nick Wardigo · 16th June 2007, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Josh Stout wrote:

These latest pictures don't show the line I thought was evidence of piled construction of the type one sees with twist core. Now it is looking like what I think is called "pool and eye" pattern though I am not good at pattern weld names. The Chinese would call this "flowery steel" (hua gang?).

Josh--
It may be overthinking the pattern-welding process to assign definite terms to every variation in patterning. When you say "pool and eye", I believe you are referring to a patterning that shows up in Persian (and, I think, Indian) wootz which is sometimes called, "rose." And, indeed, those recurring patterns were intentionally created by the smith (much like the "ladder of the Prophet" pattern). In the case of this Chinese saber, while the "pools" do resemble the "rose" pattern, I think they're just incidental to the horse-tooth forging. That is to say, the horse-tooth patterning was intentional, and in the process of forcing the lower-carbon cheek into that shape, the layers of steel were compacted and stretched to make pool-like shapes, but the pool-like shapes weren't intentional themselves. They were by-products of the horse-tooth pattern.

I haven't done a lot of research into Chinese forging nomenclature, but I think "hua gang" is a rather ambiguous term applied to patterned steel in general. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen it used to differentiate in same way as the word "sham" is used to refer to a very specific type of wootz.

josh stout · 18th June 2007, 04:40 PM

Thank you Phillip and Nick for your informative replies. I have much to learn about pattern welding. It is nice to hear that the horse tooth pattern has been recreated/is still being made. I usually try and avoid making categorical statements that get me in trouble like I did, but I wanted to come down strongly against any claims the blade was recent.

Nick, I do not speak Chinese, just Chinese sword so I can just comment on the way I see "hua gang" used. It does not seem specific to particular pattern welds, but does seem to include all the more interesting ones while not referring to plain pattern welds. So I was trying to say that I don't know the name for the pattern weld, but that it would certainly be included with the "flowery" ones. The horse tooth pattern alone would support that.

Thank you both for the help.
Josh.

16th June 2007, 06:58 AM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	comments on fittings I'm a bit late to this thread, having just been alerted by Nick Wardigo. Someone made the comment that the fittings were not up to the quality of the blade. Yes and no. I believe it was Nick who opined that the scabbard is a later replacement of indifferent quality, and I agree. Probably a "field expedient" made quickly just to have something to protect the blade and carry it around in. The hilt fittings were originally quite good. They are in the style and quality of the late 18th thru early 19th cent., with the archaistic dragon motifs in relief that started to appear on both gun and saber decoration as early as the latter 17th. The surfaces of the pommel and ferrule are extremely worn, blurring the design, but a good look at the surfaces of the guard show something of the original condition of the work. The wear on the hilt is consistent with the signs of hard usage evident on the blade before its restoration. The cord wrapping on the grip looks to be in very sound condition, and considering the amount of wear on the metal parts, it is probably not the original. It could date from the time the scabbard was replaced.

16th June 2007, 07:02 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	horse tooth lamination made today There is no question that this saber is "the real McCoy" and is definitely not a modern repro. However, a reader expressed doubts that this technique is used at present, and this post addresses this point only. Yes, the "machi" (horse tooth) has been made recently by some Japanese smiths, following the tradition of the Gassan (moon mountain) sword school, which was said to have been founded centuries ago by an immigrant smith from China. Also, a contemporary swordsmith named Vincent Evans here in the US has made several Chinese style blades with this same equine dentition.

18th June 2007, 04:40 PM	#4
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Thank you Phillip and Nick for your informative replies. I have much to learn about pattern welding. It is nice to hear that the horse tooth pattern has been recreated/is still being made. I usually try and avoid making categorical statements that get me in trouble like I did, but I wanted to come down strongly against any claims the blade was recent. Nick, I do not speak Chinese, just Chinese sword so I can just comment on the way I see "hua gang" used. It does not seem specific to particular pattern welds, but does seem to include all the more interesting ones while not referring to plain pattern welds. So I was trying to say that I don't know the name for the pattern weld, but that it would certainly be included with the "flowery" ones. The horse tooth pattern alone would support that. Thank you both for the help. Josh.