Chinese sword: real or fake?

Nick Wardigo · 12th June 2007, 01:17 PM

Tatyana--
A very nice blade with what appears to be the original handle fittings and wrap. Or, at least, they have a good amount of age. I usually associate this style of wrap to the early-to-mid 19th century...a little earlier than Josh's educated guess, but Josh could easily be correct as well. The blade COULD be older, but barring further evidence (like viewing the corrosion on the tang), I would guess not. The style of the blade is keeping with that date. Definitely looks like an inserted edge to me, and as Josh pointed out, an unusual "horse tooth" weld between the soft and hard steels.

The scabbard looks later...I would guess early 20th century. I mean, it wasn't made last week, but it isn't original. On almost all Chinese swords, the scabbard fittings match the hilt fittings. As you can see, the hilt fittings are rather ornately decorated, and the scabbard fittings are very plain. However, it seems like the scabbard is a good fit, and I would expect that this scabbard was made for this blade (rather than recycling another scabbard).

Josh--
I'm a little perplexed by your assertion that horse-tooth patterning cannot be replicated by modern smiths. It's true that I haven't seen any dating later than the early 20th century, but I have seen a lot of very beautiful modern pattern welding, including some very sophisticated twist-core. I'd be surprised if a smith couldn't replicate this. Whether it would be cost-effective is another matter entirely.

Tatyana Dianova · 12th June 2007, 07:38 PM

Thank you Nick for your input! Yes, the scabbard fits perfectly.
Are there any books on Chinese swords available??? Alas, I do not have anything in my library on the subject...

Marc · 14th June 2007, 10:55 AM

Thank you for the clarifications, I must confess that the boldness of the contrast set me off.

Josh is right, of course, there's an inserted edge. I can't really make out a distinct pattern at the back, but without more detailed pictures or direct access to the blade, I can't go beyond just an opinion.

I have also to admit an instinctive distrust of Chinese "antiques", probably exacerbated after I had to certify, some time ago, the authenticity of some allegedly Shang/Zhou bronze vessels that ended up being very decent fakes. The problem wasn't really spotting them, but justify it in front of the customer, who thought to have inherited a small (or not so small) fortune...
The world of art/antique fakes is an ugly jungle, and in some areas the Chinese are real masters of this "craft".

Again, thanks for clarifying it.

Tatyana Dianova · 15th June 2007, 11:18 AM

OK, I have tried to make some pictures of the pattern at the back of the blade. Hope this helps.

Nick Wardigo · 15th June 2007, 01:03 PM

Beautiful blade.

Sadly, there are no books exclusively on the subject of Chinese swords (at least, not in the English language). There is an article on China in the book SWORDS AND HILT WEAPONS, but it's only marginally useful, focusing on a very general overview of Chinese history.

Phil Tom wrote an excellent article on Qing Dynasty sabers in the METROPOLITAN MUSEUM JOURNAL, VOLUME 36/2001. It's a little pricey for a 15-page article, but the photography is outstanding, and there's even a picture of horse-tooth patterning very similar to yours. The article focuses on several excellent Chinese sabers that the museum owns.

Bill--
I'm very interested in seeing more photos of your sabers. May I suggest opening new threads for them? For one thing, I wouldn't want to hijack this thread, and for another, I think your sabers are of sufficient quality to warrant a separate discussion.

josh stout · 15th June 2007, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Wardigo

Josh--
I'm a little perplexed by your assertion that horse-tooth patterning cannot be replicated by modern smiths. It's true that I haven't seen any dating later than the early 20th century, but I have seen a lot of very beautiful modern pattern welding, including some very sophisticated twist-core. I'd be surprised if a smith couldn't replicate this. Whether it would be cost-effective is another matter entirely.

Well I have not gone around checking this, but Kenneth who is studying sword smithing with Zhou-Zheng-Wu made this claim on SFI as have a few others. At the time some Western sword smiths thought it should be possible to recreate, I just have not seen it done.

You make a good point that the scabbard does not match the same style as the handle fittings. I was focusing on the scabbard when I was thinking it was younger than the blade. Certainly the ornate guard and pommel match the quality of the blade better than the scabbard.

The pattern weld is still a bit of a puzzle. These latest pictures don't show the line I thought was evidence of piled construction of the type one sees with twist core. Now it is looking like what I think is called "pool and eye" pattern though I am not good at pattern weld names. The Chinese would call this "flowery steel" (hua gang?).
Josh

15th June 2007, 11:18 AM	#4
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	OK, I have tried to make some pictures of the pattern at the back of the blade. Hope this helps. Attached Images

12th June 2007, 01:17 PM	#1
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	Tatyana-- A very nice blade with what appears to be the original handle fittings and wrap. Or, at least, they have a good amount of age. I usually associate this style of wrap to the early-to-mid 19th century...a little earlier than Josh's educated guess, but Josh could easily be correct as well. The blade COULD be older, but barring further evidence (like viewing the corrosion on the tang), I would guess not. The style of the blade is keeping with that date. Definitely looks like an inserted edge to me, and as Josh pointed out, an unusual "horse tooth" weld between the soft and hard steels. The scabbard looks later...I would guess early 20th century. I mean, it wasn't made last week, but it isn't original. On almost all Chinese swords, the scabbard fittings match the hilt fittings. As you can see, the hilt fittings are rather ornately decorated, and the scabbard fittings are very plain. However, it seems like the scabbard is a good fit, and I would expect that this scabbard was made for this blade (rather than recycling another scabbard). Josh-- I'm a little perplexed by your assertion that horse-tooth patterning cannot be replicated by modern smiths. It's true that I haven't seen any dating later than the early 20th century, but I have seen a lot of very beautiful modern pattern welding, including some very sophisticated twist-core. I'd be surprised if a smith couldn't replicate this. Whether it would be cost-effective is another matter entirely.

12th June 2007, 07:38 PM	#2
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	Thank you Nick for your input! Yes, the scabbard fits perfectly. Are there any books on Chinese swords available??? Alas, I do not have anything in my library on the subject...

14th June 2007, 10:55 AM	#3
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Thank you for the clarifications, I must confess that the boldness of the contrast set me off. Josh is right, of course, there's an inserted edge. I can't really make out a distinct pattern at the back, but without more detailed pictures or direct access to the blade, I can't go beyond just an opinion. I have also to admit an instinctive distrust of Chinese "antiques", probably exacerbated after I had to certify, some time ago, the authenticity of some allegedly Shang/Zhou bronze vessels that ended up being very decent fakes. The problem wasn't really spotting them, but justify it in front of the customer, who thought to have inherited a small (or not so small) fortune... The world of art/antique fakes is an ugly jungle, and in some areas the Chinese are real masters of this "craft". Again, thanks for clarifying it.

15th June 2007, 01:03 PM	#5
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	Beautiful blade. Sadly, there are no books exclusively on the subject of Chinese swords (at least, not in the English language). There is an article on China in the book SWORDS AND HILT WEAPONS, but it's only marginally useful, focusing on a very general overview of Chinese history. Phil Tom wrote an excellent article on Qing Dynasty sabers in the METROPOLITAN MUSEUM JOURNAL, VOLUME 36/2001. It's a little pricey for a 15-page article, but the photography is outstanding, and there's even a picture of horse-tooth patterning very similar to yours. The article focuses on several excellent Chinese sabers that the museum owns. Bill-- I'm very interested in seeing more photos of your sabers. May I suggest opening new threads for them? For one thing, I wouldn't want to hijack this thread, and for another, I think your sabers are of sufficient quality to warrant a separate discussion.