Chinese sword: real or fake?

Flavio · 10th June 2007, 10:06 PM

Cogratulations!!! This is a beauty

What you have used to etch the blade?

spiral · 10th June 2007, 10:17 PM

Wonderfull lamination! Congratulations!

Spiral

asomotif · 11th June 2007, 08:23 AM

amazing blade !!!
Congratulations !!!

Marc · 11th June 2007, 11:15 AM

... and, now, is this kind of lamination what started to turn on some red lights in my panel...

If I may ask... what was used as etching medium? For how long was it applied on the blade?

My familiarity with antique chinese swords is too limited, I'm afraid, that's why I'm asking, but... is THIS kind of lamination really likely to be found in antique chinese dao? Not lamination per se, but this one, with the big "pool" pattern, so similar to the cheapest kind of commercially available pattern welded steel, lightly forged, heavily ground down, with no inserted edge....
Maybe it's only my paranoia, PROBABLY it is, but I would appreciate anyone really familiar with this kind of weaponry to come and smack me in the head, if so...

Tatyana Dianova · 11th June 2007, 02:50 PM

Thank you all for replies! Now about etching: after the blade was polished several times with 600 grit wet paper (with oil) I have used 75 % Phosphoric Acid. After 5-10 minutes of etching the blade was ready. Then again a very light polish (with 1000 paper and oil) was applied to make the blade surface shining and transparent. The Damascus steel is now like a 3D picture ( if you see, what I mean) and really beautiful, but it is impossible to show on the pictures. To make the "flashy "pictures above (to show better the steel pattern) I have used a very strong contrasting tool in Photoshop (I love Photoshop

), but in reality the pattern is seen only under correct light and angle and is subtle, like hada and hamon on Japanese swords. The picture nearest to reality is third from top, where you can see the whole sword.
The interesting feature to me is that the blade construction looks like on old Indonesian Keris: it has a core steel (it is easy to see near the cutting edge) which is covered by the layers of the Damascus Steel. Maybe it is the same as inserted edge that the Marc talks about. And about Damascus pattern and the sword itself (its origin, name and age) I would like to hear some replies from specialists too, because that was really the theme of this thread. To me it looks and feels like a real old sword, which has seen some use during its life

(see description above)

Bill M · 11th June 2007, 04:37 PM

Small question about the hanger holes. I don't see round holes on any of my older Chinese swords' hangers. Most have half moon shaped holes. Possibly drilled instead of punched?

Perhaps it is my paranoia in dealing with Chinese items.

Don't mean to rain on your parade. Would not kick it out of my sword rack.

josh stout · 11th June 2007, 06:10 PM

I am not sure what is referred to by the "hanger holes" but the suspension system looks to be authentic late 19thC manufacture. I would love to see a picture of half moon shaped holes as the late pieces I have all look like this one.

As for the pattern welding: This is a wonderful and very valuable 'horse tooth pattern” that can no longer be made by any modern smith. Those who are concerned by the strong pattern similar to the strong round patterns seen on many fakes should look at the way the pattern meets the inserted edge. You will not find this on fakes. Also, there are two separate pattern welds indicating an even higher level of sophistication. There is the pattern at the back that was attached via piled construction to the bar into which the edge was inserted with the horse tooth pattern weld. This construction is usually only found on twist core blades. I cannot quite make out the pattern on the back, but it might almost be a kind of twist core. I would appreciate if a smith could explain it to me.

Entering the realm of speculation, this looks like a late piece from the end of the 19thC made for a wealthy connoisseur or officer. The fittings would not indicate a particularly high rank, but the blade indicates the owner had significant wealth. I have seen other late show pieces with twist core blades or other fancy pattern welds and this one seems to fit in with that type.
Josh

10th June 2007, 10:06 PM	#1
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Cogratulations!!! This is a beauty What you have used to etch the blade?

10th June 2007, 10:17 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Wonderfull lamination! Congratulations! Spiral

11th June 2007, 08:23 AM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	amazing blade !!! Congratulations !!!

11th June 2007, 11:15 AM	#4
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	... and, now, is this kind of lamination what started to turn on some red lights in my panel... If I may ask... what was used as etching medium? For how long was it applied on the blade? My familiarity with antique chinese swords is too limited, I'm afraid, that's why I'm asking, but... is THIS kind of lamination really likely to be found in antique chinese dao? Not lamination per se, but this one, with the big "pool" pattern, so similar to the cheapest kind of commercially available pattern welded steel, lightly forged, heavily ground down, with no inserted edge.... Maybe it's only my paranoia, PROBABLY it is, but I would appreciate anyone really familiar with this kind of weaponry to come and smack me in the head, if so...

11th June 2007, 02:50 PM	#5
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	Thank you all for replies! Now about etching: after the blade was polished several times with 600 grit wet paper (with oil) I have used 75 % Phosphoric Acid. After 5-10 minutes of etching the blade was ready. Then again a very light polish (with 1000 paper and oil) was applied to make the blade surface shining and transparent. The Damascus steel is now like a 3D picture ( if you see, what I mean) and really beautiful, but it is impossible to show on the pictures. To make the "flashy "pictures above (to show better the steel pattern) I have used a very strong contrasting tool in Photoshop (I love Photoshop ), but in reality the pattern is seen only under correct light and angle and is subtle, like hada and hamon on Japanese swords. The picture nearest to reality is third from top, where you can see the whole sword. The interesting feature to me is that the blade construction looks like on old Indonesian Keris: it has a core steel (it is easy to see near the cutting edge) which is covered by the layers of the Damascus Steel. Maybe it is the same as inserted edge that the Marc talks about. And about Damascus pattern and the sword itself (its origin, name and age) I would like to hear some replies from specialists too, because that was really the theme of this thread. To me it looks and feels like a real old sword, which has seen some use during its life (see description above)

11th June 2007, 04:37 PM	#6
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Small question about the hanger holes. I don't see round holes on any of my older Chinese swords' hangers. Most have half moon shaped holes. Possibly drilled instead of punched? Perhaps it is my paranoia in dealing with Chinese items. Don't mean to rain on your parade. Would not kick it out of my sword rack.

11th June 2007, 06:10 PM	#7
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I am not sure what is referred to by the "hanger holes" but the suspension system looks to be authentic late 19thC manufacture. I would love to see a picture of half moon shaped holes as the late pieces I have all look like this one. As for the pattern welding: This is a wonderful and very valuable 'horse tooth pattern” that can no longer be made by any modern smith. Those who are concerned by the strong pattern similar to the strong round patterns seen on many fakes should look at the way the pattern meets the inserted edge. You will not find this on fakes. Also, there are two separate pattern welds indicating an even higher level of sophistication. There is the pattern at the back that was attached via piled construction to the bar into which the edge was inserted with the horse tooth pattern weld. This construction is usually only found on twist core blades. I cannot quite make out the pattern on the back, but it might almost be a kind of twist core. I would appreciate if a smith could explain it to me. Entering the realm of speculation, this looks like a late piece from the end of the 19thC made for a wealthy connoisseur or officer. The fittings would not indicate a particularly high rank, but the blade indicates the owner had significant wealth. I have seen other late show pieces with twist core blades or other fancy pattern welds and this one seems to fit in with that type. Josh