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8th June 2007, 02:17 PM
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#61 | |
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Keris forum moderator
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Location: Nova Scotia
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Quote:
"As I have already stated, in the opinion of two highly respected ahli keris, one of whom is an empu, now retired, this blade can be classified as Pengging. It also bears the characteristics of a Pengging blade according to information gathered from Empu Suparman Supowijaya, and as confirmed in conversation with a number of other ahli keris, collectors, and dealers over a 20 year period." In fact, his opinion is based on information from 2 empus, another highly respected ahli keris and a number of other keris ahli, collectors and dealers. Still, this doesn't mean that all these people are correct, but i believe it would be unfair to imply that because any one individual can be wrong that it is as likely that this entire group of people are also wrong. Consensus on tangguh is very often a difficult thing to reach. I believe that is part of Alan's point. 
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8th June 2007, 02:23 PM
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#62 |
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Member
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Thanks for clarifying what I wrote, David, however, I would like to clarify even further:- I have not yet given any opinion.
In fact, as far as tangguh Pengging is concerned I do not believe I could form an opinion for the simple reason that there is too much variation amongst knowledgeable people as to exactly what a Pengging keris looks like. I feel that the best I could ever do with Pengging would to quote other people, without necessarily giving an opinion myself. |
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9th June 2007, 04:03 AM
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#63 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 10
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Photographs of Keris
Hello Fellow Forumites,
It is with some hesitation I post, being one of those referred to somewhere as “ghost readers” or something, in other words, those who read avidly but do not contribute to the discussion. I have a question about something Mr. A.G. Maisey wrote, though the question is not necessarily directed at him, as I am sure many other serious students of the Keris feel the same way. I seem to recall, in an earlier posting, mentioning of the difficulty publishers of a new book on the Keris encountered- when approaching top collectors, instead of receiving a happy consent to having their collection publicized- that is- photographed), they encountered a reluctance to share. Which brings me to my question as to the reasons why the owners of some beautiful cultural artifacts- read works of art, would say (to quote Mr. Maisey): “I am not holding an exhibition of my collection, which would be something in conflict with my personal standards and system of values, I am only showing an outline for comparative purposes.” If it is not too impertinent to ask  , I would like to try and understand why some Keris owners feel a reluctance to publicize their personal holdings. Mind you, I am asking this from the vantage point of someone who is not very knowledgeable about the Keris, more like a brash American who cannot reconcile this reluctance to the tradition in this country, of the Carnegies and Mellons, who went full bore into the art market, amassing huge collections, partly out of vanity and because they could, but in a very real world sense, having built museums and created endowments to ensure that their holdings would remain on view to the public, they did so- so that the rest of us economically disadvantaged citizens, could enjoy the same access to the best artistic productions that the millionaires and elites enjoy. I’m sure we can all agree that many Keris are complete works of art, so what are the defensible reasons behind, not the emotional predilections for, the reluctance to share photographic evidence of these works of art with the hoi polloi? I hope you don’t think I am asking this because I am insensitive to the spiritual component of the Keris, only I would submit that the spiritual component is not unique to the Keris. I can’t imagine anyone would argue that the spiritual component of a Van Gogh painting has somehow been vitiated and trivialized by being put on public display. Indeed, I think the reverse would be true. How much more moving is it that millions of viewers now respond at a very deep level to paintings that but a handful of individuals gave a second thought to in the painter’s lifetime? When one talks of the energy or heat radiated by a great Keris, one might in the same breath liken that to the life force radiated by one of Van Gogh’s paintings. And who would subscribe to the notion that a Van Gogh ought to be wrapped in a velvet coverlet, stored in a cabinet and taken out for the sole pleasure of the single collector who, by virtue of luck, money or acquaintance, called it his own? Isn’t there a point when the aesthetic qualities of a Keris subsumes it’s owner’s “personal standards and systems of values” and it demands a wider audience? Like me - and other well intentioned but not so knowledgeable collectors, who do not enjoy similar access?
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9th June 2007, 10:11 AM
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#64 | |
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Member
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Location: J a k a r t a
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Quote:
Tangguh game is a serious branch of keris study. (So, I don't agree with the joke you proposed before: joking about "tangguh is invented to give men something to talk about..") I know, it was a joke. But can be a destructive opinion too... Why did I post pictures? Even books like Mr Tammens, Mr Guritno, or the book of respected David van Duuren, still posting pictures. Knowledge on keris is something "visual knowledge" too. It is easier to look the pictures (although someone can not feel the blade, or knowing the "ting-ting-an" the iron in absence of the keris), but still, makes people easier to understand. More accurate than without pictures. Still it has a positive side in showing pictures in a public website. About "showing the private collection to public", in my opinion, it is not a general rule. But personal rule. I know, there is a good habitude in the past in Java of "sinengker" (keep it secret) tradition. And knowledge on keris in the past is a "kawruh sinengker" (not for public knowledge, but only for certain rank of people)... But I learned also from the openess of Mr Sumodiningrat (in Jasper and Mas Pirngadie's book, 1912). That due to the benevolent of Mr Sumodiningrat, we could know now the kind of "extraordinary" dhapur such as "carang candala tinanding" or tjarang tjandala tinanding -- kind of karno tinanding with kembang kacang in both sides of the gandhik, but with luk like "megantoro" (combination of luk in the bottom, and straight in the point). Mr Sumodiningrat let his private collection to be published in public "for the shake of the knowledge of keris". It can be interpreted as "for the shake of the conservation of keris knowledge", Mr Sumodiningrat let his private collection to be seen by public. Also the private collection that had shown in Mr Tammens' book (De Kris).. I don't think it is a matter of "exhibitionist" attitude. This is my "second responsibility", concerning Mr Alan's statement.. This is an information era. Why must we shut the keris world in a total secret, like in a dark age? Once again, for the shake of the keris knowledge, I have no intention of destructing certain value, or personal value of the keris world. And please, this is not a personal conflict. But, discussion. We can take the positive thing out of this. With respect to Mr Alan Maisey, that I know, he has encourage the development of the Javanese keris in the last of 30 (?) years.. Ganjawulung |
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9th June 2007, 12:08 PM
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#65 | |
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Member
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Location: J a k a r t a
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Quote:
Ganjawulung |
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9th June 2007, 04:27 PM
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#66 | |
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Keris forum moderator
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Quote:
I am personally basically of the same school of thought as Alan when it comes to the internet presentation of my personal keris collection. I follow this practice for many reasons, some the same and some perhaps different than Alan's, however, none of my personal reasons involve secrecy. I am all in favor of complete openness and exchange of information of keris knowledge. But i also insist on being able to choose who i show my keris to at any given time. I am afraid that the internet, does not afford me this protection. Also some of my keris serve deeply personal spiritual functions in my ritual life. These keris i do not usually show to anyone, even to friends in person.  I am, however, eternally grateful that so many of you are willing to share your fabulous collections with us on this and other forums and galleries. I agree that viewing these keris is vitally important to the study and understanding of the keris. I consider your decisions to so publically share your collections with us both daring and brave. I would never personally call anyone so willing an "exhibitionist", nor suggest that they are in some way "wrong" for choosing to show their keris in this public forum. We need to all respect each other's personal choice in this matter.
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9th June 2007, 10:04 PM
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#67 | |
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Member
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Posts: 199
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Quote:
Referring to your statement, would you please to elaborate "both daring and brave"? merci beaucoup, Usman |
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10th June 2007, 03:17 AM
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#68 | |
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Keris forum moderator
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Quote:
But to go deeper into Vogan's questions, I am very open with friends, in my home, who show an interest in my collection and quite willing to show them many of my keris. I don't, BTW, keep most of them wrapped up in the cabinent. They are mostly on display around my home. I feel no great obligation to share them with the world at large. I'll tell you a secret... Not everyone is my friend.  In fact, i wouldn't be surprised if i have made a few enemies along the way, some of whom even check in on this forum from time to time. I have no intention of every showing my collection to them. Finally, some of my keris i consider working ritual tools on my personal spiritual path. I would show these blades to an extemely select few. My keris are not a Van Gogh painting. There were never intended to be "public art". They are, for me if you will, a part of my family and in some ways a part of my own psyche. While i would not disagree that there is a spiritual component to a Van Gogh painting i would put forth that it is not at all the same as that of a keris. They were not created with the same purpose in mind or with the same intent. You are basically comparing apples and motorcyles. I am not making any value judgements here, nor am i judging anyone else who may choose to show parts of their collection here. In fact, i encourage them to do so, so long as it is alright for them in their own personal approach to the keris. We all collect with different purposes in mind. I do not collect keris as a way of amassing wealth or for investment purposes as some do. I do not collect them solely because i have an interest in edged weapons in general as others do. I do not collect them because it is a part of my heritage and culture as still others do. I have been drawn to collect them for my own very specific and personal reasons. I am sure others on this forum feel the same as i. It is for each to choose whether or not they share their collections with an audience as large and as random as the world wide web. I consider it a great gift when people do, for those of us who can appreciate it, but it is certainly no ones obligation to ever make such a gift.
Last edited by David; 10th June 2007 at 05:11 AM. |
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10th June 2007, 04:39 AM
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#69 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 10
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Keris Photography
Dear David,
Thank you for your response to Usman, though directed to him, I thought part may have addressed some of my questions in an oblique way. Let me confess that after posting I was consumed by a bit of anxiety that I might have offended some forumites by my use of the word “share” - in a context which suggested, in a provocative way, that those who choose not to let their prized Keris be undressed in front of the camera were not “sharing”- and in the politically correct environment in which most of us operate, that suggests selfishness. I am wrong to write it like that, and if I gave offense or caused a sensitive reader to wince- I apologize. I thank you, David, for your heartfelt response to the question of posting to the net- I see your point. Perhaps I need a lesson from Miss Manners about not inquiring too closely into the personal beliefs of others and obnoxiously demanding a justification for their private convictions- but if I gave offense, it was mostly out of ignorance. In my defense, I think as a novice, I have been frustrated by the dearth of Keris related publications in English. A lack I do not understand given how fascinating the whole topic is. I have Tammens (at an exorbitant price it seemed to me, Frey, van Duuren, Spirit of the Wood, Margaret Wiener, Keris/Drs. Hamzuri, Solyom, and the Ensiklopedi Keris- as a reader, I cannot tell how frustrating it is to look at pictures in the Ensiklopedi Keris- and see a header with a term I recognize, and not be able to ingest the substance of what follows. I suspect the same experience would be intensified were I to order Keris Jawa at $150.00 on Ebay- plus 72.00(!) for shipping). It is a feeling of starving for reference material in English that perhaps gave my comments about Keris photography a bit of unintended bite. There is one person I need not name, who is so generous of his time and knowledge in this field, that is, if I have given him offense, after his kindness to me, then I need to be kicked in my behind in a public manner. I guess as David says, there is no compelling aesthetic imperative which demands that a Keris lover post photos to the net- any more than he should be compelled to post photos of his wife and children to that electronic Wild West. Case closed(?), mea culpa
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10th June 2007, 07:46 AM
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#70 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,896
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Pak Ganja, you have raised several matters in your recent posts, and I feel I do need to address these matters.In addition, questions have been raised, and explanations given in respect of the public display of private possessions; I wish to add my two-penneth to this matter also.
The relating of a joke about tangguh being invented to give men something to talk about was precisely that:- the recounting of something that had been said to me. In fact, it is a joke against myself, and was delivered as such when I first heard it---I probably spend as much time talking about tangguh as anybody I know. I disagree that such a remark can be destructive, because an understanding of tangguh is inseparable from appraisal of a keris, and appraisal is vital to the continued status of the keris in Jawa.Appraisal of a keris is intimately tied to the value of a keris; since one aspect of the keris is its function as a store of wealth,it is imperative that there be some basis upon which to establish a reference point for potential values.Tangguh gives us this reference point, and as such serves a useful financial and commercial function. Nobody ever discards a useful financial tool. I would suggest that we could make jokes about tangguh until the cows come home, and the only effect it would have would be to create greater confidence in those who have some understanding of how to apply it.There are a multitude of jokes about Wall Street and stockbrokers, but Wall Street is still there, as are the stockbrokers. Pak Ganja, the overall tenor of your posts seems to have an apologetic or perhaps justificatory tone. Please forgive me if I am incorrect in this understanding, however, if I am correct , I fail to understand just exactly why you felt that it was necessary to justify or apologise for any of your actions. Since commencing to contribute to this discussion group you have displayed impeccably good manners, you have shown a number of interesting photographs of tosan aji, and you have commented appropriately. Apologies? Justification? Why? In my estimation, completely unnecessary. I find it unsettling that you have felt the need for this, most especially so if anything I have written may have given rise to this feeling. I will state again the purpose of my posts to this thread:- I would like to try to influence those people who have some understanding of tangguh to post their opinions in such a way that the opinions will be clearly understood as opinions by people who do not know very much about tangguh, keris, or the Javanese language. Yes, I know exactly what the meaning of the word "tangguh" is, and I know the way tangguh opinions are accepted, rejected and discussed in a face to face situation, however, for somebody who has never been outside Broken Hill, or Memphis it can be extremely confusing to read what you and I know to be an opinion, presented as a statement of fact. Let me state unequivocably:- in my writing there has been no explicit, nor implied criticism of any of your actions.It grieves me that you appear to consider that there may have been such criticism. Now let me talk about the public exhibition of private possessions, keris, and other than keris. When I was a child I was taught that it was the height of bad manners, and indeed demonstrated a lack of breeding to place one's private possessions on public display. If one truly valued something, it was kept in private, in one's own home, and only select friends were permitted to view it.It was never---heaven forbid--- placed on public exhibition. This could open one to either criticism , or envy, neither of which could be considered desireable, and in some circumstances could be considered to be dangerous. Later in life I acquired a teacher other than my parents and grandparents. This teacher was a man of a different culture and society to my own. He taught me a very great deal, amongst what he taught me was a system of values that I found to be remarkably similar to my grandparents values.One of the values he taught me was that any keris which I considered to be my own, and not a keris that was to be offered for sale, should be kept in a private part of my house, and preferably, shown to nobody except those in whom in had absolute trust. These influences have formed the values that I apply in my everyday life, that is, the lessons of my parents, the lessons of my grandparents, and the lessons of my teacher. The result is that I will never display publicly any of my personal possessions, most especially any keris which I regard as a part of my personal collection, until such time as I am ready to part with that item. This could be regarded as a peculiarity by some people, and well it may be, but it is my peculiarity, it has stood me in good stead during my lifetime to date, and I have no intention of changing my attitudes. Moreover, I have no intention, nor desire to impose my values upon the actions of other people. At the present time we can see keris exhibitions right left and center, magazines with pinups of keris, many new publications with pictures of keris, thousands of pictures of keris available for public viewing on the web, we can see people posting pictures of keris which they value, here on this website. Clearly, I am the one out of step. However, I cannot help but feel that each time a prized personal possession is viewed by a stranger, a little of its essence is lost. How many of us would feel comfortable with our wives taking a role as a naked lady in a film? How much of the essence of the lady would be lost by such action? Strangely, I feel much the same about those keris which I regard as my own. Those who wish to display their personal keris in public have my blessing and my encouragement. I will enjoy continuing to gaze upon those keris, much as I enjoy watching somebody else's naked wife in a movie. But I will never display my own personal keris, that is, not until such time as I am ready to part company with that keris. Incidentally, I also have no intention of initiating any divorces. Having just delivered this sermon, I feel that I need to soften its force just a little. For those of us who collect keris purely and simply for their art, and not for the emotional force which a keris may generate, then why not display it? If you regard it purely as a work of art, then why should it not be displayed as any other work of art is displayed? We all know that works of art are commercial instruments, and as such, good, solid exposure is a positive factor in maintenance of value, most especially so if positive comments can be extracted from critics. This is logical and commercially defensible display, not only that, but it is of value to the entire keris-art community as it helps foster interest, and maintain, or even raise, value. Look at what happens to the value of any art work, or collectable, once it has been published in a book. So, to sum up:- if your keris is a work of art to you, display it please, and share its art with us, however, if it is something that you regard as a personal part of your life, think about what you are giving to strangers, and losing for yourself, before posting a picture of it to a website. |
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10th June 2007, 11:00 AM
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#71 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 199
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Quote:
Thank you for explaining me "daring and brave" in term of uploading precious keris in internet. It aware me any risk in the new world that I know just a litle bit (www, intenet, ebay etc). Alan and Ganja, Seemingly, most of your explanations are in the level of "very high ilmu sinengker". I am sure that both of you have had intersive interaction to poeple considered as gurus in Jawanese (kejawen) society. I feel very lucky to hear your conversation through this thread. Ganja, your uploading of your collection in this thread is considered, as David said, daring and brave action. I deeply appreciate and enjoy to see those precious images. through your post, I can see there is a patrem which having "maternity" undesigned-pamor that, long time ago, I dedicated my time to find it with no result. Even I said to my self that kind of pamor was a myth. Since last week, I knew that was real. Thank you for uploading it. |
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11th June 2007, 06:07 AM
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#72 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
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Dear Raden, David, Alan and All,
Thanks for encouraging me, although what I've done is quite controversial. And like you too, I have some kerises that I won't show them to anybody else except my wife. And those are not good-looking ones. Good-looking ones are just good to be looked. In many exhibitions, keris exhibitions in Jakarta, were exhibited many much better kerises. Some of them, royal kerises which now are the property of rich collectors in Jakarta. Usually, they keep the valuable kerises in a certain bank like Bank Central Asia (BCA). And they exhibited the extraordinary kerises in glass-boxes, guarded by security and camera. And exhibited in a safe area such as, Menara BCA (BCA Towers), or elite hotels such as Dharmawangsa Hotel in Kebayoran Baru, Jakarta. I would like to tell you, that the collection I've shown you in this web, are only the lesser quality of those one exhibited in Jakarta. That's why, I dare to show them to you... Ganjawulung |
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11th June 2007, 06:51 AM
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#73 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
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Monday blues, nothing to see here...
Last edited by Alam Shah; 12th June 2007 at 04:06 AM. |
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11th June 2007, 07:52 AM
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#74 |
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Member
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Posts: 6,896
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Pak Ganja,I really do not think we can call your actions in posting photos of your collection controversial.
I made a remark which referred only to my own standards, not to anybody else's standards, and I provided an explanation of my reasons for those standards when I was asked. No controversy. No shock-horror! I choose not to display my personal possessions, including keris; you and other people choose to display your keris. As I have already remarked, perhaps I am the one who is out of step. We all bear the burden of our own actions. I'm sure we will all be most happy to continue to look at whatever you, and others care to make available for our viewing, and I, for one thank you for your generosity. |
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11th June 2007, 10:15 AM
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#75 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 371
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It seems to me that this warung thrives because people share. Some share their keris (or photos at least), some share their knowledge, some share their experiences and some (like me) share their questions
. Many share combinations of these things. As long as people share something it is a very successful coffee house (you bring the biscuits, I will bring the sugar and they can bring the coffee pot sort of thing). I am very grateful to everyone who shares something in this placecheers DrD |
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11th June 2007, 02:55 PM
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#76 | |
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Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
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Quote:
Now, if you choose to consider yourself an "exhibitionist" that's just fine. Calling another person an exibitionist is a different story as the way this word is used in the English language is most often with a derogatory tone. Yes, technically it does mean "one who exhibits", but usually it implies "one who shows off too much". As for "just keeping quiet and enjoy the show", please keep in mind that it is the practice of those that choose not to show their collections that has been called into question in this thread, not the other way around. We have been asked to explain and defend our position and somewhat put on the spot in the doing. This all began because Alan decided, against his better judgement, to show a profile of one of his personal blades for comparision sake, which lead to the question of why he wouldn't show us more. If anything this discussion has only succeded in discouraging people like Alan and myself from showing anything of our collections (even profiles or sheathed keris) because people will alway question why we won't show more and this same discussion will open up all over again with new people on the forum who missed it the first time.  To recap: No one considers anybody else here to be a "fool". Everyone one has different standards for their own person collections and we must respect all of them. No one considers their own personal standards to be superior to anybody else"s. Everyone is very appreciative of those that do choose to share their collections with us on the internet. Now let's move on. For me gentleman, this discussion is over and i strongly suggest that we continue with the original intent of this thread or end it.
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11th June 2007, 04:27 PM
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#77 |
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Member
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Location: Singapore
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Monday blues... I guess...
 . I agree... lets move on. Gaze at BluErf's latest piece, a sight to behold... (imo only). 
Last edited by Alam Shah; 12th June 2007 at 04:06 AM. |
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11th June 2007, 07:17 PM
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#78 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
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Dear Shahrial,
Please, not exaggerate it. Really, I learn to know kerises outside Java from you all, although I am a "local" man... I hope not to disturb you again and again with my too-much-actions... Ganjawulung |
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