Pics: Snake-like Curves

A. G. Maisey · 7th June 2007, 06:21 AM

Ganja, nothing I have written has been intended as targetted criticism: it has been intended as an attempt to try to bring discussion of tangguh to a level and format that can operate from photographs and written communication, and assist, rather than hinder, the increase of knowledge for people who know almost nothing about tangguh.

Irresponsible and destructive actions can probably only be considered to be this when they are carried out with irresponsible and destructive intent.

Where the intent is absent, although the end result may be destruction, irresponsibility cannot be claimed.

Since in this matter there can be no charge of irresponsibility levelled, there is clearly no call for any apologies to be made.

Now that we all seem to travelling in the same direction, I feel that the way is open to continue to discuss tangguh, but using the approach of qualifying our opinions, rather than phasing them in absolute terms.

Regarding Mr. Tammens and his determinations in respect of tangguh. Some years ago I had a long and informative discussion with a highly respected Dutch keris authority and author about Mr. Tammens and tangguh. I was told that if questioned as to the reasons why a particular keris was this tangguh, or that tangguh, Mr. Tammens would not give an explanation of the indicators that permitted him to classify the keris, but simply say it was this tangguh because it had the characteristics of this tangguh. It would appear that Mr. Tammens' principal teacher was an ex-patriot Javanese gentleman, so perhaps this overaching approach is the way in which Mr. Tammens was taught, rather than the analytical approach, which is the way I was taught. In any case, when I explained and demonstrated to the Dutch author the way in which we can break the characteristics of a blade down into components, and even sub-components, and measure these components against a pre-determined standard it became very clear to him exactly how an ahli keris will determine the tangguh of a blade. I must admit, many of the people I have known who will give an opinion on tangguh do not consciously apply this same analytical approach, but when questioned, they will give answers that can be analytically aligned with the predetermined standards that I was taught.

After Mr. Tammens published his first volume, I heard an amusing story in Solo. It seems that one particular keris orientated Solonese gentleman was so incensed at what he considered to be the inaccurate information in Mr. Tammens' book, that he took it upon himself to visit Mr. Tammens in an attempt to set the record straight. I cannot vouch for this story:- it is Solo gossip, and we know what that can be like.

Ganja, when you say this is not an academic forum, I for one would very much like to believe that you are correct. We have seen the academic approach to this type of subject, and since academia does have a very prominent element of self advancement and reputation building, it can be quite destructive to goodwill and a free exchange of information and ideas. Personally, I would prefer to see us all stay friendly and stupid, rather than enlightened, if enlightenment should come at the cost of goodwill.Yeah, we're all just sitting around in the warung, pretty relaxed, nursing our cups of coffee, and swapping info back and forth. Nothing to get uptight about.But let's try to qualify those opinions about which we cannot be too certain.

Raden Usman Djogja · 7th June 2007, 08:54 AM

Alan & all kerislovers,

I do ask you, all, apology if there were short and unexpalined comments of mine which could damage the foundation of keris knowledge, especially for the "beginner"

I do hope to all readers, if any question mark in mind to write those questions in this lovely "warung kopi" forum. Seemingly, ghost readers are much much much more than talkactive members. By doing this, at least, we can repair or control the possible damage. So, the sharing of responsibility not only on the writer's shoulder but also on the reader's shoulder are crucial and important.

Usman

A. G. Maisey · 7th June 2007, 09:07 AM

I could not agree more Usman.

I would dearly love to see more of the people whom I know to read the posts to this little warung contribute directly to it by posting comments and questions.

David · 7th June 2007, 02:49 PM

There are no stupid questions my friends and i would also like to encourage my fellow forumites to step up and ask when statements are unqualified or not completely clear to them. The study of keris is deep and complex and still holds much controversy and mystery. Tangguh may be one of it's most misunderstood components and is often misapplied to keris that were never intended to be judged by the system.
I would like to thank all of you for keeping this discussion civil and friendly. While i agree that this is not an academic forum i would still like to see the quality of the information passed on here to remain at a high level of detail and accuracy, so i do think it is important that we all try to qualify and back up our statements as best we can. It is also OK to throw out completely unsupportable ideas and theories as long as we identify them as such. Nothing wrong with stirring the pot every now and then to see what might rise to the surface.

This type of loose and relaxed exchange of ideas can often lead to more solid understandings, sometimes quite by accident. As has already been stated, there are many new keris collectors out there thirsting for knowledge. There has also obviously been quite a lot of misinformation passed around about the keris over the years. While not an academic forum, i still think it is our responsibility to the keris community to do our best to foster accurate information and break down the misconceptions that have taken root over the years.

Mans · 7th June 2007, 07:05 PM

Hi dear all....

I think everyone who posted in this thread are right and gave much contribution to talking about the keris. All opinions gave good contribution to learning the keris

. Everyone have own argumentation which thing right by them self or communities, also have own culture which different of each other, have different level of English language... etc, which perhaps can make some misunderstanding when write some opinion. And of course, every readers (active or not) can take a conclusion by them self too..

That because the keris sometimes feel so subjective. But these all shown that the keris is unique, mysterious, and always interesting to discuss, right ?

So, I do appreciate that Vikingsword forum gave special space of discussion for the keris by opening the "Warung Kopi" (old speeling = Waroeng Kopi

)

And at Waroeng Kopi, sometimes peoples talking about some good idea, good topic, but sometimes also happen some little disputes. And some time feel hard to keep stay at the center. But if any little disputes, I'm sure that everyone didn't mean it

So... I think the discussion can be continued by talking about the keris. I'm not a moderator, but if the topic of "Pics: Snake-like Curves" think enough, we can opening a new thread. Did this thread had demostrated the Tosan Aji from Pengging era which has luk like a snake (sarpa lumampah), the Daleman Sumenep keris which also has luk like a Pengging keris, and keris Segaluh which has good pamor and iron work... ? Or still any opinion or question regarding the keris which has luk like a snake

I just hope that every keris lovers (new comers or who think they has good experiences) can learn much and more knowledge regarding the keris from this Waroeng...

Regards,
Manshur HIDAYAT.

kai · 7th June 2007, 09:47 PM

Hello Pak Manshur,

Quote:

"Warung Kopi" (old speeling = Waroeng Kopi

)

Wasn't the old (Dutch) transliteration kinda outlawed in Indonesia after the independence?

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 7th June 2007, 10:46 PM

No, not really outlawed.

I think it was 1972 when Dutch spellings were replaced by English spellings, but there are a lot of problems with Javanese spellings.Using a modern keyboard, for instance the dotted "A" which has a sound like "O" but further back in the mouth, not at the front of the mouth. The word "ganja" is correctly spelt as "ganja",but with dots over the "A"'s---but you cannot put those dots there with a keyboard, so they become understood.

And it is pronounced like "gonjo", which means that probably most people spell it this way.

Doesn't stop with little things either---major towns and cities can be seen to be spelt in the old way, or the new way.

Its probably best not to get too tied up with spellings in Javanese, it is really a spoken language, and the speakers of it will often change spellings as well as pronunciations to suit themselves. The main thing is that the message be understood.

Mans · 7th June 2007, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Pak Manshur,
Wasn't the old (Dutch) transliteration kinda outlawed in Indonesia after the independence?

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai

,
Yes right, but sSome old spelling (like U = OE) still used outside the formal writting, especially to talking about the old, antique object or past period, etc... Alan had explained regaring EYD (Ejaan Yang Diperbarui / new spelling of grammar).

kai · 7th June 2007, 09:38 PM

Quote:

I would dearly love to see more of the people whom I know to read the posts to this little warung contribute directly to it by posting comments and questions.

While I often don't have to add anything to the ongoing discussions, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank those experienced members who share their knowledge as well as opinions/estimates/best guesses/etc.

I especially appreciate that more people have already taken the time to detail (some of) the reasons on which their conclusions have been based. Thanks for highlighting this very important point, Alan!

I also welcome the renewed interest/activity for keris Jawa very much even if these are not the focus of my current personal interest - keep it coming! No need to apologize for any of those valuable recent contributions/pics!

Regards,
Kai

7th June 2007, 02:49 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	There are no stupid questions my friends and i would also like to encourage my fellow forumites to step up and ask when statements are unqualified or not completely clear to them. The study of keris is deep and complex and still holds much controversy and mystery. Tangguh may be one of it's most misunderstood components and is often misapplied to keris that were never intended to be judged by the system. I would like to thank all of you for keeping this discussion civil and friendly. While i agree that this is not an academic forum i would still like to see the quality of the information passed on here to remain at a high level of detail and accuracy, so i do think it is important that we all try to qualify and back up our statements as best we can. It is also OK to throw out completely unsupportable ideas and theories as long as we identify them as such. Nothing wrong with stirring the pot every now and then to see what might rise to the surface. This type of loose and relaxed exchange of ideas can often lead to more solid understandings, sometimes quite by accident. As has already been stated, there are many new keris collectors out there thirsting for knowledge. There has also obviously been quite a lot of misinformation passed around about the keris over the years. While not an academic forum, i still think it is our responsibility to the keris community to do our best to foster accurate information and break down the misconceptions that have taken root over the years. Last edited by David; 7th June 2007 at 07:39 PM.

7th June 2007, 06:21 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,082	Ganja, nothing I have written has been intended as targetted criticism: it has been intended as an attempt to try to bring discussion of tangguh to a level and format that can operate from photographs and written communication, and assist, rather than hinder, the increase of knowledge for people who know almost nothing about tangguh. Irresponsible and destructive actions can probably only be considered to be this when they are carried out with irresponsible and destructive intent. Where the intent is absent, although the end result may be destruction, irresponsibility cannot be claimed. Since in this matter there can be no charge of irresponsibility levelled, there is clearly no call for any apologies to be made. Now that we all seem to travelling in the same direction, I feel that the way is open to continue to discuss tangguh, but using the approach of qualifying our opinions, rather than phasing them in absolute terms. Regarding Mr. Tammens and his determinations in respect of tangguh. Some years ago I had a long and informative discussion with a highly respected Dutch keris authority and author about Mr. Tammens and tangguh. I was told that if questioned as to the reasons why a particular keris was this tangguh, or that tangguh, Mr. Tammens would not give an explanation of the indicators that permitted him to classify the keris, but simply say it was this tangguh because it had the characteristics of this tangguh. It would appear that Mr. Tammens' principal teacher was an ex-patriot Javanese gentleman, so perhaps this overaching approach is the way in which Mr. Tammens was taught, rather than the analytical approach, which is the way I was taught. In any case, when I explained and demonstrated to the Dutch author the way in which we can break the characteristics of a blade down into components, and even sub-components, and measure these components against a pre-determined standard it became very clear to him exactly how an ahli keris will determine the tangguh of a blade. I must admit, many of the people I have known who will give an opinion on tangguh do not consciously apply this same analytical approach, but when questioned, they will give answers that can be analytically aligned with the predetermined standards that I was taught. After Mr. Tammens published his first volume, I heard an amusing story in Solo. It seems that one particular keris orientated Solonese gentleman was so incensed at what he considered to be the inaccurate information in Mr. Tammens' book, that he took it upon himself to visit Mr. Tammens in an attempt to set the record straight. I cannot vouch for this story:- it is Solo gossip, and we know what that can be like. Ganja, when you say this is not an academic forum, I for one would very much like to believe that you are correct. We have seen the academic approach to this type of subject, and since academia does have a very prominent element of self advancement and reputation building, it can be quite destructive to goodwill and a free exchange of information and ideas. Personally, I would prefer to see us all stay friendly and stupid, rather than enlightened, if enlightenment should come at the cost of goodwill.Yeah, we're all just sitting around in the warung, pretty relaxed, nursing our cups of coffee, and swapping info back and forth. Nothing to get uptight about.But let's try to qualify those opinions about which we cannot be too certain.

7th June 2007, 08:54 AM	#2
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	Alan & all kerislovers, I do ask you, all, apology if there were short and unexpalined comments of mine which could damage the foundation of keris knowledge, especially for the "beginner" I do hope to all readers, if any question mark in mind to write those questions in this lovely "warung kopi" forum. Seemingly, ghost readers are much much much more than talkactive members. By doing this, at least, we can repair or control the possible damage. So, the sharing of responsibility not only on the writer's shoulder but also on the reader's shoulder are crucial and important. Usman

7th June 2007, 09:07 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,082	I could not agree more Usman. I would dearly love to see more of the people whom I know to read the posts to this little warung contribute directly to it by posting comments and questions.

7th June 2007, 07:05 PM	#5
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	Hi dear all.... I think everyone who posted in this thread are right and gave much contribution to talking about the keris. All opinions gave good contribution to learning the keris . Everyone have own argumentation which thing right by them self or communities, also have own culture which different of each other, have different level of English language... etc, which perhaps can make some misunderstanding when write some opinion. And of course, every readers (active or not) can take a conclusion by them self too.. That because the keris sometimes feel so subjective. But these all shown that the keris is unique, mysterious, and always interesting to discuss, right ? So, I do appreciate that Vikingsword forum gave special space of discussion for the keris by opening the "Warung Kopi" (old speeling = Waroeng Kopi ) And at Waroeng Kopi, sometimes peoples talking about some good idea, good topic, but sometimes also happen some little disputes. And some time feel hard to keep stay at the center. But if any little disputes, I'm sure that everyone didn't mean it So... I think the discussion can be continued by talking about the keris. I'm not a moderator, but if the topic of "Pics: Snake-like Curves" think enough, we can opening a new thread. Did this thread had demostrated the Tosan Aji from Pengging era which has luk like a snake (sarpa lumampah), the Daleman Sumenep keris which also has luk like a Pengging keris, and keris Segaluh which has good pamor and iron work... ? Or still any opinion or question regarding the keris which has luk like a snake I just hope that every keris lovers (new comers or who think they has good experiences) can learn much and more knowledge regarding the keris from this Waroeng... Regards, Manshur HIDAYAT.

7th June 2007, 10:46 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,082	No, not really outlawed. I think it was 1972 when Dutch spellings were replaced by English spellings, but there are a lot of problems with Javanese spellings.Using a modern keyboard, for instance the dotted "A" which has a sound like "O" but further back in the mouth, not at the front of the mouth. The word "ganja" is correctly spelt as "ganja",but with dots over the "A"'s---but you cannot put those dots there with a keyboard, so they become understood. And it is pronounced like "gonjo", which means that probably most people spell it this way. Doesn't stop with little things either---major towns and cities can be seen to be spelt in the old way, or the new way. Its probably best not to get too tied up with spellings in Javanese, it is really a spoken language, and the speakers of it will often change spellings as well as pronunciations to suit themselves. The main thing is that the message be understood.