Pics: Snake-like Curves

[Mans]

Pak Ganjawulung
Thank you for your expertise. “Nangguh” keris or to estimate where and when the keris had made is a one aspect on keris culture placed on the top rank on the keris knowledge. And I’m sure that you knew about that. Indeed that the Tangguh of keris can be analysis from many aspects. And I thought the men who has good experiences about the keris culture know well about this. Especialy men who live and interaction in the culture where the keris had made and used. To analys the keris we cannot leave the cultures, because the keris not just a thing or object. The keris is a cultural pieces too.

And was right that some aspect to analysis the tangguh can be seen on the blade style. Like luk style, panetes, greneng, gonjo, kembang kacang, wadidhang, tikel alis, trep-trepan pamor (pamor and iron blended), etc... Tantingan and tingtingan usually can be used if we're not too sure about the era (period), like the keris which made on Segaluh (Tangguh Segaluh) and keris Segaluh which made on Mataram period (Tangguh Segaluh Yasan Mataram). So, the people who has good experiences and intently to learn the keris culture (not just at keris market of course), had seen too many keris style and always well touching with the keris everyday can guessing the keris by seeing the form of the keris and ricikans without handed the keris by them self. So, from the pictures we also can guessing (nangguh) the keris, especially to know by our self. And I think this topic ever discuss on other thread.

As the cultural object and talisman, the keris gave many deep meaning like philosophy, histories and honour of cultural aspect. So, everything on the keris, especially Tangguh, not just trifling. That just my humble opinion, Pak Ganja

And regaring my keris which has luk rengkol, this can be a Daleman Sumenep keris which estimated about 18th century. So, as your expertice, this keris has ricikans as Sumenep Maduranese keris. And it shown to me that not just a Pengging keris which has luk rengkol. Some keris from Mataram Sultan Agung priode also has deep luk like the Pengging keris.
So, thanks a lot for your expertise

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Mans, although you were addressing Pak Ganja in your most recent post, it is obvious that at least some of my remarks were in your mind, thus, although you did not deign to address your comments to me, I have no hesitation in addressing my comments to you.

When we give an opinion on anything, we need to be able to defend that opinion.

If the opinion cannot be defended, it is merely empty words.

When we give an opinion on the tangguh of a keris, we need to be able provide a solid argument in respect of exactly why we believe the keris to be one tangguh, rather than another.As you so correctly point out, those who deal seriously and conscientiously in keris knowledge may not regard any elements of the keris in a trifling manner.

I agree with you, it is possible to guess at a tangguh from a picture of a keris.

It is even possible to guess at a tangguh when all we see is the top of the gonjo with the keris still in the wrongko.

It is possible to guess at the tangguh of a keris that previously occupied a wrongko.

It is possible to guess at the tangguh of a keris with our eyes shut, and relying only on feel.

However, it is not possible to provide a defensible opinion in respect of the tangguh of a keris, unless we handle the keris.Just as it is not possible to learn tangguh from pictures.

We should remember that a guess is not an opinion, and the meaning of "tangguh" when applied to the keris does carry the sense of "opinion", not "guess".

In private correspondence between friends, it may be quite legitimate to venture an opinion on the tangguh of a keris, based only on a photograph.

However, in a public forum I consider it irresponsible to provide opinions of tangguh which are based on only photographs.

Pak Mans, your level of keris knowledge and understanding is clearly high, as is the knowledge and understanding of Pak Ganja. However. many people who read and contribute to this forum do not have similar levels of knowledge, most especially in respect of tangguh. Providing guesses at tangguh, rather than defensible opinions can do irreparable damage to the potential of these people to learn.

I would ask you to consider this example:-

if we go to the doctor with some illness, that doctor , if he is at all competent, will use all means at his disposal to diagnose the illness before he provides an opinion on exactly what the illness is. He does this because apart from the duty of care he has to his patient, he knows that if he is wrong, and cannot defend the opinion he provided, he could face severe consequences.

If the doctor has vast experience, he may venture an opinion in respect of some illnesses upon the basis of the patient's description of the problem, and what can be seen.In some instances, this could even be done without the patient being present.

However, if a lay person, lacking medical experience observed this "arms length" diagnosis, that lay person could well come to believe that competent diagnoses could be made in all cases in the absence of the patient.


Compare this example to the practice of providing guesses at the tangguh of keris, based upon a photographic image of that keris.

I feel that it may be legitimate practice to publish a photograph of a keris which one has handled, and provide an opinion on the tangguh of that keris, together with the reasons which have helped in the formation of that opinion. This could be of value and could assist in the increase of knowledge of those who have not had the benefit of close personal experience in gaining a knowledge of tangguh.

However, I also feel that to provide "guesses" at the tangguh of a keris which has not been handled , and for which it is impossible to give a supported opinion , is at best less than wise, and at worst misleading and destructive.

What I have written above is my opinion, and as always I acknowledge that the opinions of others may vary from my own. I have no wish to impose my opinions upon the actions of other people, all I ask is that what I put forward be considered, together with the possible implications flowing from continuance of providing "guesses" at tangguh, rather than supportable opinions, and taking into account that no serious student of the keris regards anything to do with the keris in a trifling manner.

[David]

Thank you Alan. Those are some of the most sensible and reasonable words i have read on these forums in respect to tangguh.

[drdavid]

As a very novice keris appreciator I thank you Alan for your insights into this difficult area and your very nice analogy ( I am an experienced doctor and your comments ring quite true ).
cheers
DrD

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Alan,

enlighting!!!

Usman

[Mans]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pak Mans, although you were addressing Pak Ganja in your most recent post, it is obvious that at least some of my remarks were in your mind, thus, although you did not deign to address your comments to me, I have no hesitation in addressing my comments to you.
.................

Hi Pak Alan

Sorry if you feel that my latest posted looks like pointed to you, whereas not sure like that. Also sorry if you feel so sensitive with my opinion. I just posted some my trifling opinion. And sometimes the joke can make a misunderstanding if not at the right places we talk about.... especially if talking about the cultures, countries or another thing which have sensitive sense on forum

Back to the Tangguh of a keris, it’s just like an estimation of period. As Pak Ganja said that the meaning of tangguh is guessing (although the true meaning is more than just guessing .... ). So any argument are welcome for everyone who think has experiences and need to learn about the keris. And so that some forumities also ever asked more detail pictures to give their opinion. What for ? I think to make sure about the tangguh if we talk about the tangguh of a keris, did it ? And I’m sure that you know more about this topic because you has high level experiences about the keris too

So, I do apreciate with all of your expertises in this forum. And hope every forumities who want to learn the keris can get the knowledge by reading the opinion and seeing the photographs. And that is one of the purpose to posted some keris pictures on the threads, did it ? And I always hope that my english will be better and better for further in order to can give more clear opinion and know the meaning of other opinion


Regards,
Manshur Hidayat

[A. G. Maisey]

G'day Pak Manshur,

Whether or not your previous remarks were made after taking account of what I had previously posted is not material to my position on this matter.

Similarly, I must correct you in your misunderstanding of my emotional state:- I am not in the least sensitive in respect of anything you have written.

You have made your previous posts in good faith, following a direction that to you appears to be a valid one, however, an analysis of the factors involved in providing a valid opinion on tangguh will clearly demonstrate that such an opinion cannot be formed in the absence of the physical presence of the keris.

I do understand the meaning of the word tangguh. Yes, it can be taken to mean an estimate, it can also be intended to mean an opinion. It can never mean a guess.

An estimate as applicable to the practice of tangguh can be taken to carry the meaning of an approximation based upon probabilities.

An opinion as applicable to the practice of tangguh can be taken to have a similar meaning.It could be deemed to carry the meaning of a judgement based upon grounds that are insufficient for certainty.

An opinion may be either an informed opinion, or an uninformed opinion.

An uninformed opinion is based on notions carried in one's own mind, and by nature is subjective.

An informed opinion is based on objective factors and should be able to be defended, contrary to the case with an uninformed opinion, which cannot be defended.

I am certain that you have been party to a great many discussions in respect of tangguh. What happens at these discussions? Do the participants attempt to support their opinion as to which tangguh may be applied to the keris in question, or do they simply provide an opinion with no reasons? More often than not, concensus of opinion will be reached amongst the participants in the discussion, and that concensus will be formed because of the arguments put by the participants in the discussion. Those arguments will be based on the observable characteristics of the keris.

Thus, the final concensus of opinion will be based on objective factors, it will be defensible, and as such it becomes an informed opinion.

The appraisal of a keris in order to determine tangguh is not a guess, nor is it an estimate, it is a process whereby an informed, defensible opinion is formed.

It is impossible to form such an opinion in the absence of the physical presence of the keris.

What is possible from a good photograph of a keris is to use the image as an example of some of the features which may be found in a keris of a particular tangguh.

For instance, a photograph of a keris which bore characteristics of the Mataram Sultan Agung tangguh could be published along with a question from its owner asking what tangguh was applicable.

For anybody to provide the opinion that it was a keris of Mataram Sultan Agung tangguh would be absolutely and totally irresponsible, because this opinion could not be defended.

However, it would be acceptable to provide an opinion which identified certain features of the keris and the information that these features appeared to be consistent with a tangguh of Mataram, Sultan Agung.

As an example how such an opinion could be worded:-

" this keris could possibly be tangguh Mataram, Sultan Agung:- the blumbangan is squarish, the overall blade form is consistent with this tangguh, and the ron dha is the correct form for Mataram Sultan Agung; based upon the limited information available, I believe that upon close examination, this keris could be given the tangguh of Mataram, Sultan Agung"

Do you see the difference?

It is a qualified opinion. It says "yes, there is a possibility that this Mataram SA"

It does not say "yes, this keris is Mataram SA."

It is not a defensible opinion, it is conjecture, based on limited information.

Tangguh cannot be learnt from pictures, nor can it be applied from pictures. Responsible appraisal of a keris can only be carried out with the keris in one's hand.

I can see no objection to providing qualified opinions on the tangguh of a keris, and in fact, some of the opinions that have already been supplied have been qualified, not clearly perhaps, but the qualification has been there.

But I cannot endorse an approach that sets out to give a firm opinion on a tangguh in the absence of evidence which is insufficient to support that opinion.

Put simply:- we cannot just say:-" This is tangguh such and such"--- we need to give the reasons why we think it is tangguh such and such; we must support our opinion; nobody can support a tangguh opinion based on only a photograph.

Pak Manshur, I do appreciate that you are working in a language that is not your own, and I complement you upon the way in which you handle English. However, I would ask you to bear in mind that in written communication we must make clear those things which in face to face communication are obvious. In face to face communication we can easily differentiate between a casual guess and an opinion which has taken some time and effort to form. We cannot do this as easily in written communication. Many people with only the slightest understanding of tangguh read the opinions placed in this discussion group.If they see an opinion placed by somebody who is Javanese, and who appears to know something about keris, then that opinion, for those people, could well become an absolute truth. However, any opinion formed on the basis of a photograph, in respect of tangguh , can only be regarded as a casual guess. This can be very misleading for people with a lesser understanding of tangguh than you yourself have.