BUNTEL MAYAT

[Pangeran Datu]

Aaww

Hi all,

I found this thread interesting because it repeats a theme I have encountered numerous times, both here and elsewhere: a debate with no agreement.
It reminds me of an 'Eddy': going round in circles, dissipating energy but does no useful work (j/k)

With regard to the original post: the term 'Buntel Mayat' must be seen in the context of its inception with the advent of that damascene pattern.
As I have seen little evidence of this presented here so far, everybody may be right or wrong.
For instance, no one has put forward any credible date for its advent, from which we may be able to 'guesstimate' the correct term and its meaning.
Thus, I could be just as right as anyone else, or even more so, if I were to say that the correct term for the above damascene pattern is:

BUNTAL MAYAT

buntal = alternating 'colours'
mayat = intentional, from ayat = intend

Regarding the use of the Javanese language/words for terms in kerisology: YES and NO.
Depends whether the aspect/item was created in a Javanese region (even in Java, there are other cultures/languages besides Javanese, some a lot older than Javanese).
Unless, of course, a uniform standard has been developed which requires the use of Javanese and the aspect/item was created since the advent of that standard.

Cheers.
Aaww

[David]

Thanks for adding some more water to the eddy Pangeran.

[David]

I would also add Pangeran that just because two parties do not reach agreement in any particular debate in no way indicates that "no useful work" has been done. This has been an extremely interesting and informative discussion for me. Just because concensus isn't reached between the two major debating parties doesn't mean that either party hasn't had an influence on others on the forum. Some, like yourself, may even form a third or fourth opinion on the matter. Does this make the discussion "useless"?
Once again i would like to thank both Ganja and Alan for their cotribution on this thread.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

... I found this thread interesting because it repeats a theme I have encountered numerous times, both here and elsewhere: a debate with no agreement.
It reminds me of an 'Eddy': going round in circles, dissipating energy but does no useful work (j/k)

With regard to the original post: the term 'Buntel Mayat' must be seen in the context of its inception with the advent of that damascene pattern.
As I have seen little evidence of this presented here so far, everybody may be right or wrong.
For instance, no one has put forward any credible date for its advent, from which we may be able to 'guesstimate' the correct term and its meaning.
Thus, I could be just as right as anyone else, or even more so, if I were to say that the correct term for the above damascene pattern is:

BUNTAL MAYAT

buntal = alternating 'colours'
mayat = intentional, from ayat = intend

Regarding the use of the Javanese language/words for terms in kerisology: YES and NO.
Depends whether the aspect/item was created in a Javanese region (even in Java, there are other cultures/languages besides Javanese, some a lot older than Javanese).
Unless, of course, a uniform standard has been developed which requires the use of Javanese and the aspect/item was created since the advent of that standard.

Cheers.
Aaww

Do it need agreement? I think no one could force an agreement, on a thing that never "known" before. I mean, never heard before the name "buntel mayat" instead of "buntel mayit" in the (Javanese keris) community. What they just know is "buntel mayit" from time to time. One can claim that he is "legitimate" to ensure people that "buntel mayit" is actually "salah" (wrong). The right word is "buntel mayat". Is there any credible source for that? Instead of "oral credible source" (with respect of Empu Suparman).

But of course, you all can claim that "buntel mayat" is actually the right word. Just wore the pyjama in the your bed room (as Alan said) in order to birth-control... Of course you may, and it is free. You may use it. But whether the community will use it, than it will be in the hand on the community. The problem is, in Java, they have been long, long, living with this term of pamor. And it is no problem: some people still like the "horrible" pamor -- regarding the name of "buntel mayit" -- but some even feel, it sounds good: "buntel mayit". People in Java, like also the "terrorizing" thing. They like "debus" (a certain culture in Banten, West Jawa) that people slicing the "parang" (a kind of sword) in his body, but they are harmless. Some Javanese people like playing danger things. So? No problem if "brave people" wear "horrifying thing" like pamor "buntel mayit". Why not?

Both words, are not wrong and are not true. Both words can be used, it depends on the user's stand point. You may be true, if "buntel mayat" correlates to the method of manufacture -- without a core -- bar twisted, and then forged flat. But you must understand too, that Javanese is usually live more with "rasa" (feeling, personal experience, with heart) than with "logic". They are unlogic? In some cases, and many cases: yes. They believe what they feel, and sometimes they don't believe what people must do in logical way. (Some of our people claim" "westerners are talking with logic, while Javanese with "rasa" -- not exactly "feeling" in English word. Maybe "passion", correct me if I'm wrong).

People in Java, nowadays (young keris lover) they like much the pamor "buntel mayit". They don't even bother too much about the bad angsar or bad tuah. Even, having a keris with a "buntel mayit" pamor, is fascinating to them. (Look at my keris friend, Gus Im -- the maker of punk rocker keris, he likes very much "buntel mayit" pamor). Because, they understand that in the Javanese tradition, sometimes a habitude derived from "bad experience" in the past, that such 'beautiful' pamor to be called as bad names "buntel mayit" or "corpse wrapping". Is it the wrong word for such wrapping pamor? Of course not.

Once again, sometimes Javanese people more like playing with "rasa" than "logic" like western people. Are they unlogic? Yeaah, maybe. Sometimes people need to feel, not just to think...
Anyway, I take positive thing out of this discussion. For sure...

Ganjawulung