BUNTEL MAYAT

A. G. Maisey · 30th May 2007, 12:08 AM

All very interesting, Ganja, but it does not answer the question.

What is the meaning of "tambangan Badung"?

We know that in Javanese "tambang" is a big, thick, heavy rope---I can see a distinct relationship between this and this pamor name.

We also know that "tambang" can mean a mine.

Add "an" and get "tambangan", and we have a ferry.

Then there's "Badung".

Is it a reference to the old South Bali Kingdom, or does "badung" have a separate meaning in Sasak?

Anybody understand Sasak?

Your suggestion of linking the Javanese name to an historical incident may have some merit, but I very much doubt that your search will be successful.

However, there could be a logical link between this pamor and keris failure in a use situation. The method of manufacture---without a core--- means that you have a series of weld joints along the length of the blade, where the bar has been twisted, and then forged flat.This will create an inherrently weaker blade than one made with a core, or even with an inserted edge.

I agree with you that Javanese people relate their opinions to reality, as does the bulk of mankind.

But they also relate their opinions, and their life philosophies to superstition and the animist foundations of the culture. Again, not unlike the rural societies of Europe until comparatively recently. If the weft of Javanese society is reality, then the warp is traditional belief.

In the Javanese case this situation is complicated further by the fact that Javanese is not a standard language. It is a vehicle of communication that is subjected by its users to individual idiosyncratic manipulation.A number of researchers have commented on the propensity of speakers of Javanese to play with the language as if it were a personal possession.Further, it is a language that in its common form (ngoko) is remarkably unsuited to written transmission.

If I look at an example of pamor buntel mayat, and I wish to name that pamor, with no preknowledge of what it may be called, and I wish to use the Javanese language to name it, what choices of names do I have?
The one name that must stand above any other possible choices is "slanted wrapping"---"buntel mayat".This is an accurate physical description of the motif.

Now, how long will it be in a society where people habitually play with words, before "mayat" becomes "mayit"?

Factor in the intensification of Kejawen philosophies and the growth of the modern Javanese keris belief system since the first half of the 19th century, and it would probably be surprising if "mayat" did not morph into "mayit".

Another good choice for a name would include a rope reference---as in dadung muntir---but a big, thick, heavy rope, like a hawser, a tambang.

The word "mayit" does not seem to occur in Old Javanese.

The word "mayat" is reported by one authority as occurring in Old Javanese, but not by Zoetmulder, and its meaning is different to its meaning in Modern Javanese.

The word "buntel" does not occur in Old Javanese.

The word "tambang" does occur in Old Javanese and it carries the same meaning as in Modern Javanese.

If keris technology was transported to Lombok prior to about 1600, this pamor motif would have been named in Old Javanese, not Modern Javanese.

The Modern Javanese language did not develop until after the House of Mataram assumed power in Central Jawa, late 16th. century.

Prior to the emergence of the Modern Javanese language the name of the pamor motif "buntel mayat" could not have been "buntel mayat".

Is it possible that in the name used for this pamor motif in Lombok, we are seeing a reflection of the original Javanese name?

Or, did this pamor motif not appear until the Modern Javanese language was already established?

If this is so, then when did the pamor motif enter Bali/Lombok? Most certainly not with the original transference of keris technology.

Anybody out there understand Sasak?

ganjawulung · 30th May 2007, 02:14 AM

Dear Alan,
The problem is so simple for me: (1) I didn't find any clue that the pamor known by many of me as "buntel mayit" actually was "buntel mayat". (2) I'm not a linguist, so I don't know the language problem. (3) I'm sure that "buntel mayit" is not a sasak word, so I don't need to find somebody who understand sasak (3) I can not speak sasak, so I don't know what "tambangan badung" means.

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 30th May 2007, 02:31 AM

And this comes from Alwi Moerad, from Mataram Lombok. According to him, "tambangan badung" means rope from the kingdom of badung in bali...

A. G. Maisey · 30th May 2007, 04:08 AM

Oh well Ganja, if you cannot see the problems I have attempted to outline, if you cannot see the co-relation between the physical appearance of pamor buntel mayat, and the meaning of buntel mayat, then I reckon I must write English in a very much less clear fashion than I try to.

Yep, buntel mayat sure ain't Sasak, but tambangan has its roots in Old Javanese. Pretty much what I guessed at yesterday.

Obviously buntel mayat, or if you prefer, buntel mayit, is a comparatively recent name, dating at its earliest from the 17th century.

I reckon we've just about come full circle on this discussion.

We can all believe whatever we wish.

We can go with the flow, or we can accept the belief of one of the great ahli keris, and trust the verification of logic and history.

David · 30th May 2007, 04:30 AM

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but i personally find this discussion absolutely fascinating!

Thank you gentlemen.

A. G. Maisey · 30th May 2007, 05:16 AM

Frankly David, I've just about reached the limit of time that I'm prepared to put into this subject.

As soon as I put up the first post I knew I should not have. This subject really needs a 5000 word paper to do it justice.

Its the same old story:- one can be a collector and simply accept what is put in front of one, classify, number, catalogue and have feel-good conversations, or one can dig into the hows, wheres, and whys of things.

At this point I really don't feel like going any further with the simplistic approach I have been trying to stay with so far, and I'm sure not going to write a paper.

You know the old song:- you say tomahtoes, and I say tomaytas---well mate, that's about how about where I'm prepared to let it rest.

David · 30th May 2007, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Frankly David, I've just about reached the limit of time that I'm prepared to put into this subject.

You know the old song:- you say tomahtoes, and I say tomaytas---well mate, that's about how about where I'm prepared to let it rest.

Yes Alan, i was sensing that you were just about finished with the suject which was why i was thanking you for your imput.

...and i think you may have gotten that tomayto/tomahto thing backwards.

Ganja, we can continue to discuss this matter if you like, but i doubt we will come to any definitive answer. Alan has presented an alternative to the status quo presented by the contemporary keris world. I personally am inclined to accept Alan's theory not only because i find much sense and logic in it, but also because of the source of his information which comes as a direct line of teaching from a well known and respected ahli keris and empu. I therefore consider it "living knowledge" as opposed to book knowledge.
Others will choose to continue to follow the status quo, which i believe you defended quite well.Thank you again for your imput in this thread. I am a bit confused though as to why you feel that "either "buntel mayat" or "bungkus mayat"...are more horrible and more terrorizing than "buntel mayit""

ganjawulung · 30th May 2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... If I look at an example of pamor buntel mayat, and I wish to name that pamor, with no preknowledge of what it may be called, and I wish to use the Javanese language to name it, what choices of names do I have?
The one name that must stand above any other possible choices is "slanted wrapping"---"buntel mayat".This is an accurate physical description of the motif.

Now, how long will it be in a society where people habitually play with words, before "mayat" becomes "mayit"?

Factor in the intensification of Kejawen philosophies and the growth of the modern Javanese keris belief system since the first half of the 19th century, and it would probably be surprising if "mayat" did not morph into "mayit".

Another good choice for a name would include a rope reference---as in dadung muntir---but a big, thick, heavy rope, like a hawser, a tambang.

The word "mayit" does not seem to occur in Old Javanese.

The word "mayat" is reported by one authority as occurring in Old Javanese, but not by Zoetmulder, and its meaning is different to its meaning in Modern Javanese.

The word "buntel" does not occur in Old Javanese.

The word "tambang" does occur in Old Javanese and it carries the same meaning as in Modern Javanese.

If keris technology was transported to Lombok prior to about 1600, this pamor motif would have been named in Old Javanese, not Modern Javanese.

The Modern Javanese language did not develop until after the House of Mataram assumed power in Central Jawa, late 16th. century.

Prior to the emergence of the Modern Javanese language the name of the pamor motif "buntel mayat" could not have been "buntel mayat".

Is it possible that in the name used for this pamor motif in Lombok, we are seeing a reflection of the original Javanese name?

Or, did this pamor motif not appear until the Modern Javanese language was already established?

If this is so, then when did the pamor motif enter Bali/Lombok? Most certainly not with the original transference of keris technology.

Anybody out there understand Sasak?

Dear Alan,

I took a breath for a while, just to think about everything you said. But what is hanging in my mind is, that never before I've read or heard someone or somewhere, about the pamor's name of "buntel mayat". That is really horrible, more horrible than "buntel mayit" in my ears.

Old Javanese, of course they know the word "mayit". For sure. Just look at the Wayang, the folk theater of Java. There were a raseksi (female demon-giant) named Gedheng Permoni. She had a devil kingdom, named as Setra Ganda Mayit (smelling corpse - water).

In the case of pamor "buntel mayit", did the word "mayat" morph to "mayit"? But why, only the pamor? And why, the dhapur bearing the word "mayat" didn't change as "mayit"? Why still dhapur Mayat for the certain straight blade, and Mayat Miring for the certain 3 luks keris?

Probably, those word are on their own way. Buntel Mayit, really means as "corpse". But Mayat and Mayat Miring, that supposed to be the other meaning, not like "mayat" (corpse) in Indonesian term. In the case of dhapur, it is pretty sure that the word Mayat is not like the "mayat" in Indonesian meaning (not corpse, but slanted).

If buntel -- as you just said -- assumed not to be used in Old Javanese, why still you use "buntel mayat" instead of (for instance) "bungkus mayat"? Anyway, either "buntel mayat" or "bungkus mayat", those words are more horrible and more terrorizing than "buntel mayit". So?

Ganjawulung

30th May 2007, 12:08 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,044	All very interesting, Ganja, but it does not answer the question. What is the meaning of "tambangan Badung"? We know that in Javanese "tambang" is a big, thick, heavy rope---I can see a distinct relationship between this and this pamor name. We also know that "tambang" can mean a mine. Add "an" and get "tambangan", and we have a ferry. Then there's "Badung". Is it a reference to the old South Bali Kingdom, or does "badung" have a separate meaning in Sasak? Anybody understand Sasak? Your suggestion of linking the Javanese name to an historical incident may have some merit, but I very much doubt that your search will be successful. However, there could be a logical link between this pamor and keris failure in a use situation. The method of manufacture---without a core--- means that you have a series of weld joints along the length of the blade, where the bar has been twisted, and then forged flat.This will create an inherrently weaker blade than one made with a core, or even with an inserted edge. I agree with you that Javanese people relate their opinions to reality, as does the bulk of mankind. But they also relate their opinions, and their life philosophies to superstition and the animist foundations of the culture. Again, not unlike the rural societies of Europe until comparatively recently. If the weft of Javanese society is reality, then the warp is traditional belief. In the Javanese case this situation is complicated further by the fact that Javanese is not a standard language. It is a vehicle of communication that is subjected by its users to individual idiosyncratic manipulation.A number of researchers have commented on the propensity of speakers of Javanese to play with the language as if it were a personal possession.Further, it is a language that in its common form (ngoko) is remarkably unsuited to written transmission. If I look at an example of pamor buntel mayat, and I wish to name that pamor, with no preknowledge of what it may be called, and I wish to use the Javanese language to name it, what choices of names do I have? The one name that must stand above any other possible choices is "slanted wrapping"---"buntel mayat".This is an accurate physical description of the motif. Now, how long will it be in a society where people habitually play with words, before "mayat" becomes "mayit"? Factor in the intensification of Kejawen philosophies and the growth of the modern Javanese keris belief system since the first half of the 19th century, and it would probably be surprising if "mayat" did not morph into "mayit". Another good choice for a name would include a rope reference---as in dadung muntir---but a big, thick, heavy rope, like a hawser, a tambang. The word "mayit" does not seem to occur in Old Javanese. The word "mayat" is reported by one authority as occurring in Old Javanese, but not by Zoetmulder, and its meaning is different to its meaning in Modern Javanese. The word "buntel" does not occur in Old Javanese. The word "tambang" does occur in Old Javanese and it carries the same meaning as in Modern Javanese. If keris technology was transported to Lombok prior to about 1600, this pamor motif would have been named in Old Javanese, not Modern Javanese. The Modern Javanese language did not develop until after the House of Mataram assumed power in Central Jawa, late 16th. century. Prior to the emergence of the Modern Javanese language the name of the pamor motif "buntel mayat" could not have been "buntel mayat". Is it possible that in the name used for this pamor motif in Lombok, we are seeing a reflection of the original Javanese name? Or, did this pamor motif not appear until the Modern Javanese language was already established? If this is so, then when did the pamor motif enter Bali/Lombok? Most certainly not with the original transference of keris technology. Anybody out there understand Sasak?

30th May 2007, 02:14 AM	#2
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Dear Alan, The problem is so simple for me: (1) I didn't find any clue that the pamor known by many of me as "buntel mayit" actually was "buntel mayat". (2) I'm not a linguist, so I don't know the language problem. (3) I'm sure that "buntel mayit" is not a sasak word, so I don't need to find somebody who understand sasak (3) I can not speak sasak, so I don't know what "tambangan badung" means. Ganjawulung

30th May 2007, 02:31 AM	#3
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	And this comes from Alwi Moerad, from Mataram Lombok. According to him, "tambangan badung" means rope from the kingdom of badung in bali...

30th May 2007, 04:08 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,044	Oh well Ganja, if you cannot see the problems I have attempted to outline, if you cannot see the co-relation between the physical appearance of pamor buntel mayat, and the meaning of buntel mayat, then I reckon I must write English in a very much less clear fashion than I try to. Yep, buntel mayat sure ain't Sasak, but tambangan has its roots in Old Javanese. Pretty much what I guessed at yesterday. Obviously buntel mayat, or if you prefer, buntel mayit, is a comparatively recent name, dating at its earliest from the 17th century. I reckon we've just about come full circle on this discussion. We can all believe whatever we wish. We can go with the flow, or we can accept the belief of one of the great ahli keris, and trust the verification of logic and history.

30th May 2007, 04:30 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,227	I don't know about the rest of you guys, but i personally find this discussion absolutely fascinating! Thank you gentlemen.

30th May 2007, 05:16 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,044	Frankly David, I've just about reached the limit of time that I'm prepared to put into this subject. As soon as I put up the first post I knew I should not have. This subject really needs a 5000 word paper to do it justice. Its the same old story:- one can be a collector and simply accept what is put in front of one, classify, number, catalogue and have feel-good conversations, or one can dig into the hows, wheres, and whys of things. At this point I really don't feel like going any further with the simplistic approach I have been trying to stay with so far, and I'm sure not going to write a paper. You know the old song:- you say tomahtoes, and I say tomaytas---well mate, that's about how about where I'm prepared to let it rest.