Kastane for comment

CourseEight · 25th May 2007, 02:25 AM

Hi all --

Quote:

Nicely done Radleigh!!!
I very much like the way you have addressed the posts regarding your sword and providing nicely detailed support material. The kastane is not often discussed and extremely limited information available on them, so your sword and data have added to the archived resources here.
Thank you very much!
All the best,
Jim

I'm quite pleased to contribute. I've only been collecting real stuff for about a year, and I have to thank everyone here for what an incredible resource this site is. I'm glad to give back, even in such a limited way!

Quote:

Corrosion can indeed form a pattern along the blade, which a priori seems to be the case here. Im' afraid that without better focused pictures it's going to be hard to say anything realistic about it...

Thanks for the information, Marc! Given this, I'd say I'm fairly convinced it is not wootz. I'd love to see pictures of the sort of whole-blade patterns that corrosion can cause, to compare with mine. Reading more about it, unless I'm incorrect it seems that with a vigorous polish one can make a wootz pattern disappear, and require an etching to reappear. I tried further polishing of the kastane, and got... no change whatsoever. This, and the seemingly none-existence of other examples of wootz kastanes, seems conclusive to me.

Still an amazing piece that I'm lucky to have!

(Still on the hunt for my first something made of wootz...

)

--Radleigh

derek · 8th June 2007, 08:18 PM

Hi,

I just want to tell you that you have found a fantastic kastane for the price. I have seen examples in much poorer condition go for three times that. Congrats, it's a keeper.

As noted before, these swords were generally not meant for fighting (like many piha kaettas). They were made for people of rank or importance. They were likely inspired by Dutch naval swords during the Dutch colonial era in Ceylon. These swords, as well as the pihas, were not likely produced after the King of Kandy surrendered authority to the British in 1815. These are old swords.

Somewhere I have seen a pic of a painting of "Bonny Prince Charlie" wearing a kastane. If anyone can still find that pic, please post a link!

I've read several historical comments about the fine iron ore found in Ceylon, but the blades produced there are frequently not of a quality that would reflect this. However, the real art was poured into the other aspects, as you can see, and the styles and patterns were very explicitly defined in Sinhalese terminology. The spirals, swirls, and animal forms were heavily inspired by the surrounding flora, fauna, and spiritual beliefs.

This sword is almost certainly not wootz. If anything it would be pattern welded, and may possibly be differentially hardened "like" a japanese sword.

Again, congrats on the find. Let me know if you get tired of looking at it

-d

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2007, 05:17 PM

Hi Derek,
I sure would like to see the illustration of Bonnie Prince Charlie wearing what must appear to be a kastane also. It seems it would most likely be a hanger of some sort, as one of these in Scotland seems unlikely. I know that many exotic weapons turned up in the Netherlands though, clearly from the Dutch East India Co. commerce in those regions, so who knows?

The history of the kastane itself is obscure, however as a weapon form, actually with focus on the hilt, the earliest known example with the 'sinha' (lion) head and distinct quillon arrangement is held in Tokyo. This sword is provenanced from the Keicho Mission of 1613-1620, which was a diplomatic mission which visited many foreign ports. It is unclear whether the mission actually obtained the kastane in Ceylon (Sinhala, Sri Lanka) or whether it was obtained via another trade location. In any case its provenance does set the hilt form to early 17th c.

In my opinion, the distinct quillon system reflects hanger hilts from earlier Italian sabres known as 'storta' which were widely diffused via the Venetian traders (see "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword", A. North, The Connoisseur, London, 1975). These hilts in turn developed on European hangers of the forms seen in England, Germany and the Netherlands. Many of these later featured lion heads it is uncertain whether the sinha from the kastane may have prompted the European versions. It does seem that these distinct swords may have developed from the considerable trade contact of these powers, and may have been adopted in form in the early years of the 17th c.

It is indeed interesting that with the steel production so prevalent in Sri Lanka from ancient times that they became so reliant on the foreign blades in the case of the kastane. Many examples I have seen seem to consistantly carry VOC (Dutch East India Co.) blades and if memory serves, most of those have dates stamped in 1760's. I do agree that the kastanes do seem to date from 18th century and possibly as noted to c.1815.

Best regards,
Jim

ingelred · 9th June 2007, 06:45 PM

Hello,

in the book Visions of an Island about the collection of Christopher Ondaatje there is another painting mentioned showing a portrait of General Aexander Popham wearing a kastane. According to the book this General lived from 1605 to 1669. This painting is now in the Tower of London and is reproduced in the book, too. There are also nice pictures of all kinds of antiques of Ceylon including many nice kastanes and piha kaettas.

Greetings, Helge

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2007, 08:11 PM

Hi Helge,
Thank you so much for the info on that book! It seems anything really specific on the weapons of Sri Lanka (old Sinhala, Ceylon) is pretty hard to find. Very much appreciate the help on that

I'll try to find a copy.

All the best,
Jim

derek · 9th June 2007, 09:31 PM

Hi Jim,

I'd have to agree it's unlikely Prince Charles come by a kastane in Scotland! But he was after all born in Italy and then exiled in France. I'd guess he came across one during the latter period.

Please let me know if you find that book!

-d

8th June 2007, 08:18 PM	#2
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi, I just want to tell you that you have found a fantastic kastane for the price. I have seen examples in much poorer condition go for three times that. Congrats, it's a keeper. As noted before, these swords were generally not meant for fighting (like many piha kaettas). They were made for people of rank or importance. They were likely inspired by Dutch naval swords during the Dutch colonial era in Ceylon. These swords, as well as the pihas, were not likely produced after the King of Kandy surrendered authority to the British in 1815. These are old swords. Somewhere I have seen a pic of a painting of "Bonny Prince Charlie" wearing a kastane. If anyone can still find that pic, please post a link! I've read several historical comments about the fine iron ore found in Ceylon, but the blades produced there are frequently not of a quality that would reflect this. However, the real art was poured into the other aspects, as you can see, and the styles and patterns were very explicitly defined in Sinhalese terminology. The spirals, swirls, and animal forms were heavily inspired by the surrounding flora, fauna, and spiritual beliefs. This sword is almost certainly not wootz. If anything it would be pattern welded, and may possibly be differentially hardened "like" a japanese sword. Again, congrats on the find. Let me know if you get tired of looking at it -d

9th June 2007, 05:17 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Derek, I sure would like to see the illustration of Bonnie Prince Charlie wearing what must appear to be a kastane also. It seems it would most likely be a hanger of some sort, as one of these in Scotland seems unlikely. I know that many exotic weapons turned up in the Netherlands though, clearly from the Dutch East India Co. commerce in those regions, so who knows? The history of the kastane itself is obscure, however as a weapon form, actually with focus on the hilt, the earliest known example with the 'sinha' (lion) head and distinct quillon arrangement is held in Tokyo. This sword is provenanced from the Keicho Mission of 1613-1620, which was a diplomatic mission which visited many foreign ports. It is unclear whether the mission actually obtained the kastane in Ceylon (Sinhala, Sri Lanka) or whether it was obtained via another trade location. In any case its provenance does set the hilt form to early 17th c. In my opinion, the distinct quillon system reflects hanger hilts from earlier Italian sabres known as 'storta' which were widely diffused via the Venetian traders (see "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword", A. North, The Connoisseur, London, 1975). These hilts in turn developed on European hangers of the forms seen in England, Germany and the Netherlands. Many of these later featured lion heads it is uncertain whether the sinha from the kastane may have prompted the European versions. It does seem that these distinct swords may have developed from the considerable trade contact of these powers, and may have been adopted in form in the early years of the 17th c. It is indeed interesting that with the steel production so prevalent in Sri Lanka from ancient times that they became so reliant on the foreign blades in the case of the kastane. Many examples I have seen seem to consistantly carry VOC (Dutch East India Co.) blades and if memory serves, most of those have dates stamped in 1760's. I do agree that the kastanes do seem to date from 18th century and possibly as noted to c.1815. Best regards, Jim

9th June 2007, 06:45 PM	#4
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	Hello, in the book Visions of an Island about the collection of Christopher Ondaatje there is another painting mentioned showing a portrait of General Aexander Popham wearing a kastane. According to the book this General lived from 1605 to 1669. This painting is now in the Tower of London and is reproduced in the book, too. There are also nice pictures of all kinds of antiques of Ceylon including many nice kastanes and piha kaettas. Greetings, Helge

9th June 2007, 08:11 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Helge, Thank you so much for the info on that book! It seems anything really specific on the weapons of Sri Lanka (old Sinhala, Ceylon) is pretty hard to find. Very much appreciate the help on that I'll try to find a copy. All the best, Jim

9th June 2007, 09:31 PM	#6
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi Jim, I'd have to agree it's unlikely Prince Charles come by a kastane in Scotland! But he was after all born in Italy and then exiled in France. I'd guess he came across one during the latter period. Please let me know if you find that book! -d