Walang Sinudhuk

[Mick]

Marco

I may be getting a bit old, but I just leafed through "Keris Jawa" and did not see a sample of the pamor under discussion.

The illustration in Tammens is:

[Mick]

Marco

To continue (I can't figure out how to continue in the same post after adding the illustration), the photograph that Battara placed was a picture of a blade that he has held in his hand that was almost a dead ringer of this illustration.

That is if I remember it correctly. Battara where are you??

I have never seen a blade with this pamor.

[ganjawulung]

Dear All,

Would you mind if I send the illustration of Pamor Walang Sinudukan according to Mr Haryono Haryoguritno's "Keris Jawa, Antara Mistik dan Nalar"? Hopefully this illustration (page 208) will help you...

Ganjawulung

[Mans]

Hello dear all keris lovers,
Sugeng enjang Mas Cahya...

Just want to give my humble opinion regarding pamor Walang Sinuduk although me my self didn't have the keris with pamor Walang Sinuduk yet

Walang, in Jawanese term mean grasshopper or locust. Sinuduk (from source word "Suduk") mean skewer / to stick (hard to translate into English ). So, Walang Sinuduk mean the grasshopper which skewered with a stick.

Walang known as plant disease for farmer (Jawanese people known as agriculture societies). So, Walang Sinuduk has deep meaning that if we need to avoid the plant disease, so we must wipe the Walang at field (wet rice field). And if we can do that, we will get much appreciation or respect from communities of farmers. So that why this pamor believed that it can bring the owner to have more authorities/power --(which gave from communities).

Indeed that many book had illustrated the form of this pamor. but every book gave different illustrations of each other. So, which the illustraton nearest with the from of this pamor as it was
I think the form of this pamor should be similiar with the grasshopper which skewered.

Here I posted another illustrations from book "Pamor Keris" by Bambang Harsrinuksmo.
Also the keris collection of Mr. Budi Warsonugroho :
http://kerisbw.fotopic.net/c589653.html
http://kerisbw.fotopic.net/p16631016.html
nyuwun duko saderengipun Pak Budi, dhuwung panjenengan dalem agem contoh

Well, thats just my humble opinion

Salaam,
Manshur Hidayat

[Mick]

ganjawulung

Glad you put my nose on the right page. I must have had an "old moment" while leafing through the book. I remember the page but did not pick up on the pamor statement. This is possibly the best representation of this type of pamor around.


Marco

The representations of examples in "Keris Jawa" were taken from actual blades that were in Haryono's hands at one time or another. So this is about as near as you are going to get to a blade in hand.

[ganjawulung]

Yeah Mick,

It is easier to get "patterns" name in "damascus pamor". (On Damascus Steel, Leo S Figiel MD, 1991). Or even in Devin Thomas' website (the man who claim the most productive makers in damascus steel patterns). It is easier to imagine his patterns like: Banded Ladder, Firestorm, Reptilian, Spirograph, Sharkstooth, Turkish Twist, Raindrop, Fireball. And all are measurable: including how much dollar are the price of the patterns available per inch...

I think keris world must learn more from their "elder brother", the damascus steel world. I'd like to see keris books as good as Leo S Figiel's book..

[Jeff Pringle]

From a technical point of view, it is interesting to note that the pattern called out as "pamor walang sinunduk" on the page I posted and as illustrated in Tammens are composed of two twisted bars, twisted together, the latter two drawings from Haryoguritno/Harsrinuksmo seem to illustrate a pattern formed by removing metal from an untwisted bar. (although the p. 208 illustration is more or less ambiguous)


More photos, please

[Newsteel]

Originally Posted by Mans

Indeed that many book had illustrated the form of this pamor. but every book gave different illustrations of each other. So, which the illustraton nearest with the from of this pamor as it was

Bapak Hidayat,
I had the same thinking too after viewing all the pictures. All illustration differs. So do we choose to believe one pamor that look like a skewed locust??

[Marcokeris]

Mans, the pamor in your thread seems from bonang rineteng style. In the book "Pamor Keris" there is another pamor with the same pattern (I put picture below)

Here i put also some "pictures" that well illustrate the confusion in my brain.
one from M. Roeslan book "dunia keris pusaka"
one from a pamor's book by Wibatsu Harianto
another from A. Zazuli book

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Mans, the pamor in your thread seems from bonang rineteng style. In the book "Pamor Keris" there is another pamor with the same pattern (I put picture below)

Here i put also some "pictures" that well illustrate the confusion in my brain.
one from M. Roeslan book "dunia keris pusaka"
one from a pamor's book by Wibatsu Harianto
another from A. Zazuli book

Marco,
Let's try to straight things out (if possible).
1) Your 1st diagram, I don't think it's pamor pandan iras. Refer to Haryono's Keris Jawa, pg: 208, Fig: 4.32j = Walang Sinundukan, Fig: 4.32lk = Pandan Iras. It's different altogether, although the construction method are similar.

2) Your 2nd picture looks like pamor Gumbala Geni, to me... looks like "smoke rising", in abstract form.

3) and 4) pamor are same with the 1st pic. Same doesn't mean it's correct.
It just means that they copied from the same reference. Even the texts are the same, (Hidayat's eg from Pamor Keris, your 1st and 3rd pictures are the same)... (need to check what pamor is it, btw).

Imho, I guess these authors might have simply 'copy and paste' without much research.

[Mans]

Originally Posted by Newsteel

Bapak Hidayat,
I had the same thinking too after viewing all the pictures. All illustration differs. So do we choose to believe one pamor that look like a skewed locust??

Pak Newsteel ,
I think pamor keris must be definited, and we must choose the illustrated which nearest same with illustrated on the book (as Pakem). That because pamor of the keris easier to definited that Tangguh which has more complicated aspects to analysis the keris.

Here I posted my keris with has similiar pamor as illustrated on Pamor Keris book by Bambang Harsrinuksmo. But in the other book (Keris jawa ; Antara Mistik dan Nalar by Haryono Haryoguritno p; 121) called as Ilining Warih. So, do my keris can be called has pamor Walang Sinuduk

Marco, I think pamor Bonang Rinenteng or Bonang Sarenteng has different form with Walang Sinuduk (Keris with pamor Bonang Sarenteng : http://keris.fotopic.net/c1045903.html)

[Marcokeris]

Thanks Mans for your photo
I agrre with you