What is origin of this dagger?

A. G. Maisey · 15th May 2007, 07:55 AM

Shown are photos of a recently acquired dagger.

Length is a bit more than 12 inches, overall.

Hilt plates are horn.

Can anybody suggest a geographic point of origin, or approximate age?

Thank you.

Tim Simmons · 15th May 2007, 08:53 PM

It looks like a European "main gauche" How old? Could span three hundred years or more.

I would gamble on it being late 1700s early 1800. That is just a complete guess.

Andrew · 15th May 2007, 09:13 PM

Alan, what's that plate at the forte made of?

A. G. Maisey · 16th May 2007, 12:09 AM

Thanks for your opinion, Tim.

Yeah, general condition seems to indicate the period you mention, but it is quite a bit smaller than any main gauche I have seen.

Andrew, I have not yet tested this material. When purchased it was completely covered in dirt, and I thought it was brass, however, after a good wash with a kitchen degreaser, and scrub with a soft toothbrush, it came up glittering. Brass does not clean so easily. I suspect that it is possibly gilt. It is a two part thing, with a thin foil underneath that has a copper, or rose-gold colour. When I get a chance, I'll get a friend, who is a jeweller, to test it.

Marc · 16th May 2007, 12:00 PM

I'm afraid I disagree. "Main Guache" daggers, despite their geographical and chronological variety, share some features that makes them able to be used in fencing together with a sword, and this one doesn't seem to be really fit for the task, I'm sorry.
On the other hand (pun intended), it does seem to feature some "european" influence, in a somewhat crude way. I can't really offer much more, other than what I've already said, I'm clueless.

A. G. Maisey · 16th May 2007, 02:46 PM

Thanks for your contribution Marc.

It definitely does seem to be European---at least it is totally unlike any Eastern dagger I have ever handled---and I've handled a lot.

Tatyana Dianova · 18th May 2007, 07:50 AM

Hermann Historica has similar one and tells it is from Afghanistan:
http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat52_A.txt

Ian · 18th May 2007, 08:54 PM

Hi Alan:

Interesting questions you pose. The pinned hilt (does the tang run the complete length of the handle?), horn scales (not buffalo horn I would suggest, perhaps cow horn), and turned down quillions say European to me. Age is hard to judge, but it looks at least pre-1900, possibly considerably older. How did you come by this one?

Ian.

A. G. Maisey · 20th May 2007, 10:19 AM

Yes Tatyana, there are some similarities between my dagger and the one you have referenced, but I'm not sure that these similarities are sufficient to let us say that it is from the area of Afghanistan. Before I posted these pics , I went through all the weapons books I have---and I have a lot--- there are features in this dagger of mine that can be linked to probably half a dozen countries, including USA. Its a tricky one. For me, at any rate.Thanks for your suggestion.

Yes Ian, the tang does run full length, has a slight taper , and has caused very considerably staining of the horn. The horn is pale, and there is pale buffalo horn, but what type of horn this is, I would hestitate to say. The grip plates have a lot of history evidenced in them by scores, depressions and general wear, but are still tight and undeformed.The quillons do look European, certainly, but the fit and finish of the gaurd to the blade is very much what I would expect of a village smith, rather than a cutler.Yes, there is no doubt in my mind that this is pre-1900, and based on material and general patina, I would place it maybe 100 to 150 years prior to that. My age question was in the hope that somebody with more knowledge than I have of this type of thing would recognise a style and type of workmanship, and be able to locate it with reasonable precision.It was part of an auction lot of mixed daggers that I bought locally.Thank you Ian for your contribution.

15th May 2007, 07:55 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	What is origin of this dagger? Shown are photos of a recently acquired dagger. Length is a bit more than 12 inches, overall. Hilt plates are horn. Can anybody suggest a geographic point of origin, or approximate age? Thank you. Attached Images

18th May 2007, 08:54 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Very interesting Hi Alan: Interesting questions you pose. The pinned hilt (does the tang run the complete length of the handle?), horn scales (not buffalo horn I would suggest, perhaps cow horn), and turned down quillions say European to me. Age is hard to judge, but it looks at least pre-1900, possibly considerably older. How did you come by this one? Ian.

15th May 2007, 08:53 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It looks like a European "main gauche" How old? Could span three hundred years or more. I would gamble on it being late 1700s early 1800. That is just a complete guess.

15th May 2007, 09:13 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Alan, what's that plate at the forte made of?

16th May 2007, 12:09 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Thanks for your opinion, Tim. Yeah, general condition seems to indicate the period you mention, but it is quite a bit smaller than any main gauche I have seen. Andrew, I have not yet tested this material. When purchased it was completely covered in dirt, and I thought it was brass, however, after a good wash with a kitchen degreaser, and scrub with a soft toothbrush, it came up glittering. Brass does not clean so easily. I suspect that it is possibly gilt. It is a two part thing, with a thin foil underneath that has a copper, or rose-gold colour. When I get a chance, I'll get a friend, who is a jeweller, to test it.

16th May 2007, 12:00 PM	#5
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	I'm afraid I disagree. "Main Guache" daggers, despite their geographical and chronological variety, share some features that makes them able to be used in fencing together with a sword, and this one doesn't seem to be really fit for the task, I'm sorry. On the other hand (pun intended), it does seem to feature some "european" influence, in a somewhat crude way. I can't really offer much more, other than what I've already said, I'm clueless.

16th May 2007, 02:46 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Thanks for your contribution Marc. It definitely does seem to be European---at least it is totally unlike any Eastern dagger I have ever handled---and I've handled a lot.

18th May 2007, 07:50 AM	#7
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 701	Hermann Historica has similar one and tells it is from Afghanistan: http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat52_A.txt

20th May 2007, 10:19 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Yes Tatyana, there are some similarities between my dagger and the one you have referenced, but I'm not sure that these similarities are sufficient to let us say that it is from the area of Afghanistan. Before I posted these pics , I went through all the weapons books I have---and I have a lot--- there are features in this dagger of mine that can be linked to probably half a dozen countries, including USA. Its a tricky one. For me, at any rate.Thanks for your suggestion. Yes Ian, the tang does run full length, has a slight taper , and has caused very considerably staining of the horn. The horn is pale, and there is pale buffalo horn, but what type of horn this is, I would hestitate to say. The grip plates have a lot of history evidenced in them by scores, depressions and general wear, but are still tight and undeformed.The quillons do look European, certainly, but the fit and finish of the gaurd to the blade is very much what I would expect of a village smith, rather than a cutler.Yes, there is no doubt in my mind that this is pre-1900, and based on material and general patina, I would place it maybe 100 to 150 years prior to that. My age question was in the hope that somebody with more knowledge than I have of this type of thing would recognise a style and type of workmanship, and be able to locate it with reasonable precision.It was part of an auction lot of mixed daggers that I bought locally.Thank you Ian for your contribution.