Faceted Tips on Chinese Swords? (Split from HOS Catalogue thread)

Andrew · 15th May 2007, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsubame1

Whew, I belived this topic was deleted and me banned again ...

lol. Why would you think you had been banned?

Conscience bothering you, perhaps?

tsubame1 · 15th May 2007, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Conscience bothering you, perhaps?

No, because I've just posted in other two threads...

Andrew · 15th May 2007, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsubame1

No, because I've just posted in other two threads...

Exactly.

tsubame1 · 15th May 2007, 10:18 PM

Let's try to use the mountings too and other different types of blades to help
the joint-venture in finding chinese-treasured specimen...

Here a Kanto no Tachi late Kofun (before 537. A.D) surely imported from China due to the roundly casted sword pommel. Later japanese ones were innovated into flat plate work, with continental designs stylized the japanese way (Swords of the Samurai, Harris and Ogasawara, British Museum publications ISBN 0 7141 1450 2) :

and here a couple other examples both considered as continental, both early to middle Asuka period , around 540-600 A.D. left kirihazukuri with ridge line and yokote (not visible due to reflection), right hirazukuri with neither ridge line nor yokote (apparently, due to the poor state) with "Fukura", rounded point instead of strainght angled one in all the other examples I've provided. These swords were imported too and were mounted the same way as the others (Sato, "The japanese sword", Kodansha publication ISBN 0 87011 562 6) :

Hope helps.

josh stout · 16th May 2007, 05:06 PM

Judging from the display on Thomas Chen's website (http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo3.html) The Tang dynasty is the place to look. The angled point with no faceting shown on the Song saber is one I have seen examples of (There is a picture on another page of the same website of what appears to be a Qing copy of Song horse cutting saber with exactly that tip.) The problem is that I can't tell what the line drawing on Thomas Chen's website is based on. If it is based on the examples found in Japan we are back where we started. I found one site (http://kaladarshan.arts.ohio-state.e...20Buddhism.pdf) that shows a Tang temple, and tantalizingly there is a deity holding a sword, but the tip is not visible... aargh! If anyone might get to that temple please take a picture. Another place to go would be the Tang dynasty caves listed here (http://ignca.nic.in/ks_19020.htm). I have seen Ming pictures of Tang dynasty personages, but of course the swords they hold are then in the Ming style. In the quick bit of research I have done on this topic I found that the reason Tibetan swords are often cited as being Tang in style is that the Tibetans conquered a large section of China during that time. So perhaps it is not that Tibetan swords are Tang in style but that Tang swords are Tibetan. However, Tibetan swords that I have seen do not have a faceted tip or ridgeline, so the focus might have to be non-Tibetan Tang dynasty swords.
I will continue to look.
Josh

tsubame1 · 16th May 2007, 08:53 PM

Josh, is it possible that there is *no bibliography* about chinese swords
depicting the sword you've found in the site ? I can't believe there is no
printed timeline for swords of such a civilization out there.
Anyway, the link is fruitful. I think the author doesn't base the drawings
on japanese examples. Every other info on that page is clearly of chinese
origin. Take a look to the cross sections of swords and you'll notice the
presence of the one that is interesting us and that have as a natural
byproduct the Yokote. Very interesting the info about the textures
and their timelines too.

josh stout · 17th May 2007, 03:54 PM

I am not positive everything on the site is used with permission so not all the images are cited, and no, I don't think there is any good English timeline for Chinese sword styles. This website is the best I have found. The website also makes use of the same pictures of swords in Japan to illustrate Tang and Sui blade styles. (http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/custom.html)

An interesting thought is that early Ming jain sent to Tibet as a gift from the emperor look Tibetan, perhaps blades sent to Japan look Japanese?

I have found one Early Ming or Yuan Tibetan saber in "Warriors of the Himalayas" with a medial ridge, which is interesting. Usually it is thought that faceted blade sections disappeared in China under the Yaun dynasty when curved dao and other Central Asian styles were introduced to China. Then faceted blades were supposedly reintroduced from Japan in the Ming and Qing perhaps with the influence of Ming general Qi who fought Japanese pirates. The Tibetan example hints that the style may have persisted through the Yaun without Japanese influence.

Still no faceted tips though. More like the look of a straight bladed Korean Hwando.
Josh

15th May 2007, 10:18 PM	#4
tsubame1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Magenta, Northern Italy Posts: 123	Let's try to use the mountings too and other different types of blades to help the joint-venture in finding chinese-treasured specimen... Here a Kanto no Tachi late Kofun (before 537. A.D) surely imported from China due to the roundly casted sword pommel. Later japanese ones were innovated into flat plate work, with continental designs stylized the japanese way (Swords of the Samurai, Harris and Ogasawara, British Museum publications ISBN 0 7141 1450 2) : and here a couple other examples both considered as continental, both early to middle Asuka period , around 540-600 A.D. left kirihazukuri with ridge line and yokote (not visible due to reflection), right hirazukuri with neither ridge line nor yokote (apparently, due to the poor state) with "Fukura", rounded point instead of strainght angled one in all the other examples I've provided. These swords were imported too and were mounted the same way as the others (Sato, "The japanese sword", Kodansha publication ISBN 0 87011 562 6) : Hope helps. Last edited by tsubame1; 15th May 2007 at 10:32 PM.

16th May 2007, 05:06 PM	#5
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Judging from the display on Thomas Chen's website (http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo3.html) The Tang dynasty is the place to look. The angled point with no faceting shown on the Song saber is one I have seen examples of (There is a picture on another page of the same website of what appears to be a Qing copy of Song horse cutting saber with exactly that tip.) The problem is that I can't tell what the line drawing on Thomas Chen's website is based on. If it is based on the examples found in Japan we are back where we started. I found one site (http://kaladarshan.arts.ohio-state.e...20Buddhism.pdf) that shows a Tang temple, and tantalizingly there is a deity holding a sword, but the tip is not visible... aargh! If anyone might get to that temple please take a picture. Another place to go would be the Tang dynasty caves listed here (http://ignca.nic.in/ks_19020.htm). I have seen Ming pictures of Tang dynasty personages, but of course the swords they hold are then in the Ming style. In the quick bit of research I have done on this topic I found that the reason Tibetan swords are often cited as being Tang in style is that the Tibetans conquered a large section of China during that time. So perhaps it is not that Tibetan swords are Tang in style but that Tang swords are Tibetan. However, Tibetan swords that I have seen do not have a faceted tip or ridgeline, so the focus might have to be non-Tibetan Tang dynasty swords. I will continue to look. Josh

16th May 2007, 08:53 PM	#6
tsubame1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Magenta, Northern Italy Posts: 123	Josh, is it possible that there is no bibliography about chinese swords depicting the sword you've found in the site ? I can't believe there is no printed timeline for swords of such a civilization out there. Anyway, the link is fruitful. I think the author doesn't base the drawings on japanese examples. Every other info on that page is clearly of chinese origin. Take a look to the cross sections of swords and you'll notice the presence of the one that is interesting us and that have as a natural byproduct the Yokote. Very interesting the info about the textures and their timelines too.

17th May 2007, 03:54 PM	#7
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I am not positive everything on the site is used with permission so not all the images are cited, and no, I don't think there is any good English timeline for Chinese sword styles. This website is the best I have found. The website also makes use of the same pictures of swords in Japan to illustrate Tang and Sui blade styles. (http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/custom.html) An interesting thought is that early Ming jain sent to Tibet as a gift from the emperor look Tibetan, perhaps blades sent to Japan look Japanese? I have found one Early Ming or Yuan Tibetan saber in "Warriors of the Himalayas" with a medial ridge, which is interesting. Usually it is thought that faceted blade sections disappeared in China under the Yaun dynasty when curved dao and other Central Asian styles were introduced to China. Then faceted blades were supposedly reintroduced from Japan in the Ming and Qing perhaps with the influence of Ming general Qi who fought Japanese pirates. The Tibetan example hints that the style may have persisted through the Yaun without Japanese influence. Still no faceted tips though. More like the look of a straight bladed Korean Hwando. Josh