keris and spirit

[David]

Conduits of vibration can be very peculiar sometimes...
Again, i don't mean to discount the metaphysical, but i also think it is very important to look at all the possible natural phenomenon possibilities first. There are many and they are not always so obvious.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by David

i also think it is very important to look at all the possible natural phenomenon possibilities first.

I agree with David.

However, sometimes, not to make simplification is a wise way. If we face two situation in the same time which each one is very logic, it is up to our willingness to relate or unrelate those phenomenon.

For example, yesterday, someone got promotion. It was logic because he was a harworker and had been working very weel. Yesterday, he got telephone from Keris smith informing that his commissioned keris had been finished. It was logic because he commissioned a Keris 2 two year ago and, at that time, the smith had had promised that the Keris would be finished 2 year later.

Then, it is free choice for him to think whether it is a sign or not regarding with the "power" of his new Keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

Then, it is free choice for him to think whether it is a sign or not regarding with the "power" of his new Keris.

Yep, sometimes it's all just a matter of how you look at the world.
Yet even those of us who adopt a magickal world view also realize that making things happen in our lives is often the fruit of much hard work. I remember once attending a workshop on sigil working. A sigil is a symbol, like a seal, that is created for a specific magickal purpose. One guy in the workshop asked if there was some special sigil one could use to help him get a job. The instuctor thought for a moment and then told the guy "Yes, it's called a resumé!"

[A. G. Maisey]

May I congratulate you, Raden, upon achieving your desire to own a keris by Empu Djeno.

You know, it would not surprise me if many more people who ordered keris prior to Empu Djeno's return to his Father's House recieved news that their orders had been finished prior to Empu Djeno's departure.It is even possible that all keris ordered from Empu Djeno were finished long ago, and the only reason for delay in delivery has been because of the time taken to dress these blades in a suitable fashion.

Regarding the fire at the Keraton Surakarta Hadiningrat in 1985.

For some time, prior to this fire , Sinuhun had not infrequently remarked to his close friends that he was disappointed that he had reached the evening of his life, but he still had not built a keraton of his own.

The length of time that a Javanese keraton is allowed to stand is traditionally recognised as 100 years.

Bearing in mind these two facts, one must question whether the power of the pusakas was to prevent the destruction of a keraton that had already outlived its allotted span, or whether the power was one of renewal to assist in creation of a new keraton.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

or whether the power was one of renewal to assist in creation of a new keraton.

Alan,

it is new info for me. very fruitful. thank you very much.
sometimes, we get the truth longafter we concluded it. and too many times truth and conclusion differ.

[A. G. Maisey]

Raden, I am not stating a truth, for I do not know what is the truth.

I am merely proposing an alternative way of looking at an event which did occur and that at the time of its occurrence was surrounded with mystery and rumour.

[Lei Shen Dao]

When I asked young smith Sungkowo whether there is different between keris used meteorite pamor and nickel pamor regarding with its strength of "power". He answered "most probably, yes, there is."

Hi

Considering the meteorite and the "power" of a keris, I know that a keris must have meteorite in order to keep in it the power/spirit of the empu.

A spirit is consider a yin thing in most cases. The meteorite, is also of yin quality coming from space...So there is a need for a yin material to have a yin spirit in it.

From what I've heard in the past, there is a need for a keris to be powerful, to include meteorite inside. Otherwise, there is no spirit in it.

Best

[David]

Originally Posted by Lei Shen Dao

Hi

Considering the meteorite and the "power" of a keris, I know that a keris must have meteorite in order to keep in it the power/spirit of the empu.

A spirit is consider a yin thing in most cases. The meteorite, is also of yin quality coming from space...So there is a need for a yin material to have a yin spirit in it.

From what I've heard in the past, there is a need for a keris to be powerful, to include meteorite inside. Otherwise, there is no spirit in it.

Best

Can you reference this information to any known old writings or authority. I have never heard this before, that only a keris with meteorite in it can hold a spirit. I also have yet to see any provable reference to meteorite being used before the Prambanan fall in the mid 18th century. I have searched records and can find no known iron bearing meteorite fall in Jawa before the Prambanan fall. And this is a subject we have really discussed in some depth here in the past with no reliable evidence ever coming to the surface. I would like to see substantiated claims for this kind of information. Unsubstantiated claims only perpetuate these myths about meteorite use and bring us no closer to the truth of the matter.
Personally i would like to believe that what you are claiming here is true, but i get tired of seeing these types of claims repeated again and again with no real evidence to back them up.

[Lei Shen Dao]

Personally i would like to believe that what you are claiming here is true, but i get tired of seeing these types of claims repeated again and again with no real evidence to back them up.

Hi

I can understand your point.

However, I never said that I am a specialist in keris affairs....

I am just quoting what I have heard in the past and even now, by some people from Java and Surabaya, people who I estimate and respect a lot, for their opinion in matters like these. People who handle, thousands of keris literally, and live with these objects for many years knowing every single aspect of keris. They are considered experts in this field and the most important is that they don't make a living from selling keris, so their knowledge is completely "clean" if I may say.

I just offered an explanation from another point of view. Everyone is free to believe it or not. It is just another opinion.

I am not just a collector of keris (I only have 4 keris and one tombak, so not too much of a collector yet, I guess ).
I am interested into the metaphysics, so I see this aspect of keris culture with a genuine interest.

If someone here has an experience concerning the power of a keris, does he have also to prove his claims or to indicate some kind of source? I don't think so.
This is the same with me (please keep in mind that I could share stories too, but I choose not to do so, out of respect to such sensitive matters).

There were meteorites before Prambanan. Small ones in villages and in the wild, or from trading with other countries like China for example and the list goes on. Small meteorites fall all the time in the planet.
Prambanan just happened to have good "public relations"

Best

[David]

Originally Posted by Lei Shen Dao

If someone here has an experience concerning the power of a keris, does he have also to prove his claims or to indicate some kind of source? I don't think so.

If someone is relating a personal experience here there is no need to ask for the source of the information. It is a first person experince so the source is obvious. I then have the choice of believing them or not.
When someone relates knowledge or experience that is not their own i feel perfectly comfortable asking them where they heard or read such a thing. I then also have the choice of believing the source or not.
Many things are said about the keris, some true and some not. Some are provable and some are not. I have no doubt that there are even things we will never be able to prove about the keris that are still likely to be true regardless.
Still, i see no point in blindly accepting unsubstantiated statements without questioning both the source and the content of such statements. You may choose to disregard the questions, but i certainly mean no disrespect in asking them.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

in late 1990s, local newspaper reported there was small meteorite fallen down in Temanggung county, Central Java. Soon after that, I aimed to go there. Unfortunely, my acquintance informed that there was no meteorite anymore. The biggest one was occupied by the local government. The smaller debris were for "first come first get".

not really pararel with Lei Shen Dao story:

For some Indonesian people whenever they face serious problem, it is quite common, till nowadays, they do meditate in certain area which believed sacred place. For example, in mountain, beach, jungle, tomb et cetera. Then, quite common fairytails, they are satisfied if during their meditation finding someting, for instance: stone (either raw stone or already "akik" shape), wood, keris. For them, those thing are pusakas or jimat.

Yes of course, 99% of cases are fakes. Why, because generally in doing meditation, there is Dukun involvement. Seemingly, Dukun has thousand ways to deceive his clients.

Now, lets consider with the 1% which really happen. If we read the biography of Sultan HB IX of Yagyakarta, in certain chapter there is explanation of spiritual experience. Especially, in the early period of Indonesian independence. Yes, for me, I simply tend to believe on HB IX statement because he did not need to make "imaginative stories" for his fame. No need at all. So it was written so it was happened.

Okay, to sum up, I would like to raise a premise here. Was there any possibility someone finding a small meteorite during his meditation in the mountain? Then, he gave that meteorite to Empu for his commisoned keris.

[lelang69]

Originally Posted by David

Again, i don't mean to discount the metaphysical, but i also think it is very important to look at all the possible natural phenomenon possibilities first.

keris.. keris siapa mau beli keris 50% diskon abis nggak pakai perewangan ( keris keris for sale and discount 50% without Methaphysical power). What's a pity keris in southeast asia. is it an aeng tong tong Touris keris or real keris ?

I agree with david we should be look at the natural phenomenon possibility . But David , I suggest you should be put the natural aspects in number 100 after Methaphysical power in the first place when you are talking about keris with Indonesia or it's neigbouring country. if you don't you must be KUALAT SANTET (methapysical illness).

for Indonesian and it's neigbouring country, a millions Rupiahs ($ 100.000)keris will turn to be 50 tousands rupiahs keris ($ 40s) when they completly do not own methaphysical power.

we should aware as keris lover , keris Empus provide methaphysical, phylosophy aspect in every keris they create
and the Aeng tong tong Keris Smith provide the beauty and mass commodity for the tourist.

This is the reality condition in the world of keris lover In Indonesia and it's neigbouring country,

isn't it Pak Raden usman, pak ganjawulung Leres nggeh!, cik alam Syah bersetuju kah!

[PenangsangII]

Lelang69,

I beg to differ WRT your statement that fake spiritually imbued power keris is so widely spread in Southeast Asia, especially in other countries than Indonesia. I am not what the keris market is in Indonesia, but I can tell you for certain, here in Malaysia the situation is very different.

Sure, the blank keris (wedding & tourist craps) are on sale in the open, but most collectors (and pesilat) are aware of what the vendors are selling....crap.

Keris making activities in Malaysia are not as thriving compare to Indonesia (based on info you provided, it's quite big), though I am not sure how this "industry" is like in indonesia. In Malaysia, the keris making activities are dying simply because the pandai keris do not mass produce their craft, and still retain the traditional way of keris forging. If I were to order a standard keris from a smith, it would take him at least 3 - 4 months to complete. And with the mahar of around MYR 700 - 1000 (about USD 200 - 300) per piece, I wonder how he can support his livelihood. That is why, keris making is dying here.

Most collectors therefore would prefer to source their collection from the antique shops, other collectors, internet etc. for older kerises that still maintain its khadam in them

[rahman]

I used to be engaged in a fiery discussion in another forum and was insulted badly by a few forumites when putting across the traditional way of treating the keris in my collection, and the way I communicated with the keris (in this case, the guardian of the keris). From then on, I swear to myself to never again discuss keris in the spiritual context.

So Hana, please be prepared as the non traditionalists will bash you up to the maximum if you are not careful when discussing this subject. Some of them are perhaps what the other forumites termed as "ghost readers" and would definitely jump in when the situation warrants.

Penangsang is probably referring to his unpleasant experience in KampungNet, and that came about when he chose to belittle the faith other members have in their Islamic traditions. Indeed, I had up to that point resisted requests to shut down that particular thread.

As David has already warned, there is no such danger here, and I encourage discussions on these mystical aspects here rather than in KampungNet, where no such reactions should arise or would be welcomed.

[HanaChu69]

Greetings keris experts,

Great to see more replies in this sharing session..I guess we are moving right on track…I like the different version of “Pangkur Gedhong Kuning”..Aspirational indeed…

Penangsang – Thanks for the tips. As for the insults you received from the other forums, its very norm. Look at it this way; different forums have various viewers of different culture. Take the positive and switch off the negative comments. BTW, it’s sad to hear about the dying keris making trades in Malaysia.

Bram – I have to agree that “Aeng Tong Tong craftsmen” has a class of its own. I saw how Mans and friends managed to trace the village. It was quite challenging as there’s no directional sign amidst the forestry area. I saw their kerises and find their craftsmanship worthy. I might consider them if I have a new patrem in mind to custom made to my aesthetic liking maybe someday.

Usman – I know that there are no specific rules on the three consecutive aspects of keris but my preference will be aesthetical, technical followed lastly by spiritual aspects.

Ganjawulung – I knew of someone who has a powerful keris but zero from aesthetic aspect. He will collect only kerises with spiritual aspect. So it’s very subjective.

David - I believe anything is possible. You may have a keris without “khadam/sakti”. However, if you are likeable, these spirits may just reside and hop into your keris as a dwelling place. It’s a figure of speech to contextualize my understanding.

May the force be with you…

[David]

Originally Posted by lelang69

we should aware as keris lover , keris Empus provide methaphysical, phylosophy aspect in every keris they create
and the Aeng tong tong Keris Smith provide the beauty and mass commodity for the tourist.

I think that it should be clear that the vast majority of keris, both old AND new, were not created by an empu. This is a rather specific title as AFAIK. So it seems likely to me that many keris have been created over the centuries by village pandai that were meant to provide more than just "beauty and mass commodity for the tourist". These are cultural items created with a cultural purpose, not for tourists or just collectors.
Contemporary keris are created today on many levels of quality and execution. Many collectors are happy to collect the best of these new keris even if they were created with no metaphysical intent, but purely for their beauty and execution. But i have found that some of these keris have great presence inspite of the lack of such intent. I have also found that a keris with such a presence can be a great empty container which can be filled with spiritual intent if one so wills it. Frankly, one can fill a steak knife with such intent if that is your choice. It just won't be so beautiful to look at.
IMHO, powerful magickal objects are useless in the hands of those who do not possess the power and magick within themselves to wield them.

Originally Posted by lelang69

isn't it Pak Raden usman, pak ganjawulung Leres nggeh!, cik alam Syah bersetuju kah!

Lelang, you were doing so well up to here. You have been asked before not to write untranslated passages on this forum. I have no problem with any language written here as long as an accurate translation is also provided. Since you have used Indonesian phrases in the past to pass insults i am particularly wary. Consider yourself warned.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by lelang69

keris.. keris siapa mau beli keris 50% diskon abis nggak pakai perewangan ( keris keris for sale and discount 50% without Methaphysical power). What's a pity keris in southeast asia. is it an aeng tong tong Touris keris or real keris ?

....KUALAT SANTET (methapysical illness).

......we should aware as keris lover , keris Empus provide methaphysical, phylosophy aspect in every keris they create
and the Aeng tong tong Keris Smith provide the beauty and mass commodity for the tourist........

In defense of aeng Tong Tong keris makers: Mas Hidayat, posting here as Mans can take you to Aeng Tong Tong and introduce you to keris makers who have TOP technical skills. How much can you afford to spend? Aeng Tong Tong craftsmen can make the keris for you. They make keris for a living, be the buyers people who rent out traditional dress or tourists (the tourist market is the smaller one). Aeng Tong Tong is the ONLY village in the whole wild world that has made keris for many many generations, with a pause only during the Japanese occupation durion WWII. If you can't respect that, I suggest you learn to.

Kuwalat and Santet are two different terms relating to different things. Kualat is when someone gets ill-fortune because of disrespecting something he should respect. For example, Lelang might be kuwalat because of the slander he dishes to the Aeng Tong Tong craftsmen. According to tradition if you are kuwalat, when you go to Hell you are hung by your feet with your head down. Santet is a black magic attack mostly initiated by dukun santet. Kuwalat and santet are different things.

Perewangan is not, as Lelang translated, mystical power. A perewangan (from the word rewang - help) is a person who can fall into trance and obtain help from the spiritual realm to answer certain questions like... who stole my keris? ... So a perewangan is a certain type of dukun who falls into trance when his/her helper takes over. Lelang, on the other hand, means auction.

Warm salams,
Bram