keris and spirit

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Alan, thank you.

When I asked young smith Sungkowo whether there is different between keris used meteorite pamor and nickel pamor regarding with its strength of "power". He answered "most probably, yes, there is."

Then the interesting thing is we can not be able to differentiate visually it (based on your valid test).

Another story:
Longtime ago, I have discussed with someone about the spirit of keris. In his opinion, there is a bad category of keris, eventhough, according to pakem, every aspect of that keris is excelent. This kind of keris is a burnt keris. For example, if we find a keris amongst debris of a house burned down, that keris is not a good one. According to his explanation, that keris has already lost its power. Have you heard about stories similiar as it is?

Another example, he picked out Kraton Solo case. In 1980s (?), parts of Keraton burned down. Some people said they found kerises amongst debris. Those kerises, even very beautiful court ones, were classified as powerless pusaka. Why? Because already burnt

As teenager at that time, I had high curiousity to challenge his opinion by provoking that I still beleived those kerises still have giant powers. He defended succinctly his opinion, "If still having giant power, so why was the Keraton burned".

Okay... time is out. Now your turn to tell a fairytail

Usman

[t_c]

This isn't about an Indonesian keris, but rather a Moro kris, but I think it's relevant to your disscusion on blades and spirits.

I haven't told too many people about my experience with this kris, it was a little strange and I was never sure what people would think. One summer I was fortunate enought to visit Madrid and go to the Museo del Ejército (it's a military museum near the Museo del Prado). They have a great collection of old Phillipine weapons. I was looking at one of the krises (no scabbard) in a display case and it started to "rattle" a little bit, just kinda shake or vibrate on it's long axis. I thought it was a little weird and tried not to get excited. I was raised by a structural engineer who installed in me the virtues of the western scientific method, and taught me to always look for the rational explaination for things. With that bearing, I decided to leave the keris and walk around a little more and then come back and see if it would do it again. I did this, and again it "rattled". It was shaking as if you were to bang lightly on the shelf with which it was laying, but nothing else was moving. The rattling didn't last too long on either occassion, a few seconds or so. It stopped and I left the display, but I never could it figure out, but it really seemed as though it had moved on it's own. There may be a "western scientific" answer, or perhaps there was something more to the piece. I do my best to keep an open mind regarding any possible explaination.

For me personally, I know we live in a modern world governed by logic and science (I'm a CAD tech by trade). On the whole, that is the direction my culture (USA) has taken, but it seems there are still some things that science doesn't have an explaination or catagory for (I have witnessed a professed medium resist fire). So take this event/encounter as you will. Mabye it was vibrations in the building that rattled just this piece because it lay on a pivot, or mabye it was saying hi. I don't know.

I would be interested if anyone is aware of any spiritual practices regarding the smithing of blades in Sulu or the Philippines (I know, that's a post for the General Forum).

Thank you all for sharing your experiences, it's allowed me to take a wider view of my own. So hey, mabye I'm not crazy after all and the thing really did move on it's own!

[David]

Originally Posted by t_c

I would be interested if anyone is aware of any spiritual practices regarding the smithing of blades in Sulu or the Philippines (I know, that's a post for the General Forum).
Thank you all for sharing your experiences, it's allowed me to take a wider view of my own. So hey, mabye I'm not crazy after all and the thing really did move on it's own!

Hi TC. You are right, discussion of Moro kris should take place in the General Forum, though i do appreciate your shared experience here. There are, indeed, spiritual practices associated with these blades, though sorting them out often seems even more difficult that with the Indo keris.
I certainly do not doubt your exprience, though even i, with much experience with the metaphysical, would be more inclined to attribute this to a building vibration first. But who know, eh?
Please feel free to start up a similar thread in the General Forum on your experience. I would be interested in the responses there.

[BluErf]

I have always enjoyed reading about the non-material aspect of kerises, though somehow, I just can't remember much of them to retell them to others.

On the vibration of the kris from time-to-time, I can't help but recall a particular meeting room in the building that I work in. The window panes would rattle whenever a truck drives by. Many a visitor would ask - "Was that an earthquake?". I guess the meeting room was situated at the exact spot where vibrations converge.

[David]

Conduits of vibration can be very peculiar sometimes...
Again, i don't mean to discount the metaphysical, but i also think it is very important to look at all the possible natural phenomenon possibilities first. There are many and they are not always so obvious.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by David

i also think it is very important to look at all the possible natural phenomenon possibilities first.

I agree with David.

However, sometimes, not to make simplification is a wise way. If we face two situation in the same time which each one is very logic, it is up to our willingness to relate or unrelate those phenomenon.

For example, yesterday, someone got promotion. It was logic because he was a harworker and had been working very weel. Yesterday, he got telephone from Keris smith informing that his commissioned keris had been finished. It was logic because he commissioned a Keris 2 two year ago and, at that time, the smith had had promised that the Keris would be finished 2 year later.

Then, it is free choice for him to think whether it is a sign or not regarding with the "power" of his new Keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

Then, it is free choice for him to think whether it is a sign or not regarding with the "power" of his new Keris.

Yep, sometimes it's all just a matter of how you look at the world.
Yet even those of us who adopt a magickal world view also realize that making things happen in our lives is often the fruit of much hard work. I remember once attending a workshop on sigil working. A sigil is a symbol, like a seal, that is created for a specific magickal purpose. One guy in the workshop asked if there was some special sigil one could use to help him get a job. The instuctor thought for a moment and then told the guy "Yes, it's called a resumé!"

[Lei Shen Dao]

When I asked young smith Sungkowo whether there is different between keris used meteorite pamor and nickel pamor regarding with its strength of "power". He answered "most probably, yes, there is."

Hi

Considering the meteorite and the "power" of a keris, I know that a keris must have meteorite in order to keep in it the power/spirit of the empu.

A spirit is consider a yin thing in most cases. The meteorite, is also of yin quality coming from space...So there is a need for a yin material to have a yin spirit in it.

From what I've heard in the past, there is a need for a keris to be powerful, to include meteorite inside. Otherwise, there is no spirit in it.

Best

[lelang69]

Originally Posted by David

Again, i don't mean to discount the metaphysical, but i also think it is very important to look at all the possible natural phenomenon possibilities first.

keris.. keris siapa mau beli keris 50% diskon abis nggak pakai perewangan ( keris keris for sale and discount 50% without Methaphysical power). What's a pity keris in southeast asia. is it an aeng tong tong Touris keris or real keris ?

I agree with david we should be look at the natural phenomenon possibility . But David , I suggest you should be put the natural aspects in number 100 after Methaphysical power in the first place when you are talking about keris with Indonesia or it's neigbouring country. if you don't you must be KUALAT SANTET (methapysical illness).

for Indonesian and it's neigbouring country, a millions Rupiahs ($ 100.000)keris will turn to be 50 tousands rupiahs keris ($ 40s) when they completly do not own methaphysical power.

we should aware as keris lover , keris Empus provide methaphysical, phylosophy aspect in every keris they create
and the Aeng tong tong Keris Smith provide the beauty and mass commodity for the tourist.

This is the reality condition in the world of keris lover In Indonesia and it's neigbouring country,

isn't it Pak Raden usman, pak ganjawulung Leres nggeh!, cik alam Syah bersetuju kah!

[PenangsangII]

Lelang69,

I beg to differ WRT your statement that fake spiritually imbued power keris is so widely spread in Southeast Asia, especially in other countries than Indonesia. I am not what the keris market is in Indonesia, but I can tell you for certain, here in Malaysia the situation is very different.

Sure, the blank keris (wedding & tourist craps) are on sale in the open, but most collectors (and pesilat) are aware of what the vendors are selling....crap.

Keris making activities in Malaysia are not as thriving compare to Indonesia (based on info you provided, it's quite big), though I am not sure how this "industry" is like in indonesia. In Malaysia, the keris making activities are dying simply because the pandai keris do not mass produce their craft, and still retain the traditional way of keris forging. If I were to order a standard keris from a smith, it would take him at least 3 - 4 months to complete. And with the mahar of around MYR 700 - 1000 (about USD 200 - 300) per piece, I wonder how he can support his livelihood. That is why, keris making is dying here.

Most collectors therefore would prefer to source their collection from the antique shops, other collectors, internet etc. for older kerises that still maintain its khadam in them

[David]

Originally Posted by lelang69

we should aware as keris lover , keris Empus provide methaphysical, phylosophy aspect in every keris they create
and the Aeng tong tong Keris Smith provide the beauty and mass commodity for the tourist.

I think that it should be clear that the vast majority of keris, both old AND new, were not created by an empu. This is a rather specific title as AFAIK. So it seems likely to me that many keris have been created over the centuries by village pandai that were meant to provide more than just "beauty and mass commodity for the tourist". These are cultural items created with a cultural purpose, not for tourists or just collectors.
Contemporary keris are created today on many levels of quality and execution. Many collectors are happy to collect the best of these new keris even if they were created with no metaphysical intent, but purely for their beauty and execution. But i have found that some of these keris have great presence inspite of the lack of such intent. I have also found that a keris with such a presence can be a great empty container which can be filled with spiritual intent if one so wills it. Frankly, one can fill a steak knife with such intent if that is your choice. It just won't be so beautiful to look at.
IMHO, powerful magickal objects are useless in the hands of those who do not possess the power and magick within themselves to wield them.

Originally Posted by lelang69

isn't it Pak Raden usman, pak ganjawulung Leres nggeh!, cik alam Syah bersetuju kah!

Lelang, you were doing so well up to here. You have been asked before not to write untranslated passages on this forum. I have no problem with any language written here as long as an accurate translation is also provided. Since you have used Indonesian phrases in the past to pass insults i am particularly wary. Consider yourself warned.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by lelang69

keris.. keris siapa mau beli keris 50% diskon abis nggak pakai perewangan ( keris keris for sale and discount 50% without Methaphysical power). What's a pity keris in southeast asia. is it an aeng tong tong Touris keris or real keris ?

....KUALAT SANTET (methapysical illness).

......we should aware as keris lover , keris Empus provide methaphysical, phylosophy aspect in every keris they create
and the Aeng tong tong Keris Smith provide the beauty and mass commodity for the tourist........

In defense of aeng Tong Tong keris makers: Mas Hidayat, posting here as Mans can take you to Aeng Tong Tong and introduce you to keris makers who have TOP technical skills. How much can you afford to spend? Aeng Tong Tong craftsmen can make the keris for you. They make keris for a living, be the buyers people who rent out traditional dress or tourists (the tourist market is the smaller one). Aeng Tong Tong is the ONLY village in the whole wild world that has made keris for many many generations, with a pause only during the Japanese occupation durion WWII. If you can't respect that, I suggest you learn to.

Kuwalat and Santet are two different terms relating to different things. Kualat is when someone gets ill-fortune because of disrespecting something he should respect. For example, Lelang might be kuwalat because of the slander he dishes to the Aeng Tong Tong craftsmen. According to tradition if you are kuwalat, when you go to Hell you are hung by your feet with your head down. Santet is a black magic attack mostly initiated by dukun santet. Kuwalat and santet are different things.

Perewangan is not, as Lelang translated, mystical power. A perewangan (from the word rewang - help) is a person who can fall into trance and obtain help from the spiritual realm to answer certain questions like... who stole my keris? ... So a perewangan is a certain type of dukun who falls into trance when his/her helper takes over. Lelang, on the other hand, means auction.

Warm salams,
Bram