Super mandau

asomotif · 11th May 2007, 01:50 PM

It was relisted once, the first listing did not allow bids from outside USA.

Definately not a Langgai Tinggang.
As per Ben's rules also not a Jimpul. But still, nice blade, nice hilt.

Didn't this come from an ebay auction in the USA last month ?

Lew · 11th May 2007, 03:36 PM

The scabbard looks new and has no real patina to it. The red fabric is fresh and there is no wear or dirt on the stitching? The forging on the scroll work is ok but it seems very simple not like what I have seen on older swords. My guess is that it is of recent manufacture. Here is a link to a early 20th century sword with a finer made blade the scabbard shows the proper patina for an older piece. The scroll work and general forging of the blade exhibits a more refined touch.

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=361

Lew

VVV · 11th May 2007, 04:20 PM

Hi Lew,

I agree that the scabbard looks quite recent.
But I think that the parang on the link above is more related to this kind of non-documented Iban sword than the one on Artzi's site?
And the hilt form looks more like the rare kind shown in Iban Art pict.135 or Coppens page 73 (far right).

Michael

Lew · 11th May 2007, 04:42 PM

VVV

My point was that the sword on ebay was recently made so in my opinion it is a copy possibly for sale to the locals. I can't see spending that much money for a recent blade no matter how rare the style. How does one know if a local shop in that area just copied it from a photo in a book?

Lew

ariel · 11th May 2007, 05:18 PM

Quoting Michael:
"... I think that the parang on the link above is more related to this kind of non-documented Iban sword than the one on Artzi's site?
And the hilt form looks more like the rare kind shown in Iban Art pict.135 or Coppens page 73 (far right)."

Another one of my pseudophilosophical ramblings:
Why do we always try to pigeonhole every weapon into some predefined niche?
"This one is a Niabor, this one is a Jimpul, and that one is undefined or undocumented"

Do not get me wrong: it is important to know a correct name for many reasons, but these swords were made by hand, by illiterate village smiths who never belonged to trade guilds, had no manuals, no strict standards and no ethnographers standing behind their backs and ordering them to increase the angle just a bit to conform to Pic. X on Page Y in book Z.
Of course, every one of them had just a gestalt of what a mandau ( or anyrhing else) should look and just spiced it up from time to time with a crenellation here, a curlicue there and a recurve blade if he had a pariculatly good drink last evening.
The more we look at the swords, the more variability we find even within the same class. Not a miracle: it is an art first and foremost, and real art lets imagination run wild.
I just wonder what real head-hunting Dyaks from the 19th century would call this sword. Probably just "A Sword".

VVV · 11th May 2007, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Quoting Michael:
"... I think that the parang on the link above is more related to this kind of non-documented Iban sword than the one on Artzi's site?
And the hilt form looks more like the rare kind shown in Iban Art pict.135 or Coppens page 73 (far right)."

Another one of my pseudophilosophical ramblings:
Why do we always try to pigeonhole every weapon into some predefined niche?
"This one is a Niabor, this one is a Jimpul, and that one is undefined or undocumented"

Do not get me wrong: it is important to know a correct name for many reasons, but these swords were made by hand, by illiterate village smiths who never belonged to trade guilds, had no manuals, no strict standards and no ethnographers standing behind their backs and ordering them to increase the angle just a bit to conform to Pic. X on Page Y in book Z.
Of course, every one of them had just a gestalt of what a mandau ( or anyrhing else) should look and just spiced it up from time to time with a crenellation here, a curlicue there and a recurve blade if he had a pariculatly good drink last evening.
The more we look at the swords, the more variability we find even within the same class. Not a miracle: it is an art first and foremost, and real art lets imagination run wild.
I just wonder what real head-hunting Dyaks from the 19th century would call this sword. Probably just "A Sword".

The only reason for using collector terminology, like Jimpul and Niabor, is to be able to explain in one word what you are referring to and save space on this forum.

Non-documented f.i. means that it's not pictured in any of the books.

But I agree that a parang is a parang is a parang...

Michael

asomotif · 11th May 2007, 05:57 PM

Dear Lew,

A recent copy of this quality seems not likely to me.

But, as soon as they are offering them at a startprice of 0,99 from China I will certainly become very careful

11th May 2007, 03:36 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	The scabbard looks new and has no real patina to it. The red fabric is fresh and there is no wear or dirt on the stitching? The forging on the scroll work is ok but it seems very simple not like what I have seen on older swords. My guess is that it is of recent manufacture. Here is a link to a early 20th century sword with a finer made blade the scabbard shows the proper patina for an older piece. The scroll work and general forging of the blade exhibits a more refined touch. http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=361 Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 11th May 2007 at 03:51 PM.

11th May 2007, 04:20 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Lew, I agree that the scabbard looks quite recent. But I think that the parang on the link above is more related to this kind of non-documented Iban sword than the one on Artzi's site? And the hilt form looks more like the rare kind shown in Iban Art pict.135 or Coppens page 73 (far right). Michael Attached Images

11th May 2007, 05:57 PM	#7
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	recent copy Dear Lew, A recent copy of this quality seems not likely to me. But, as soon as they are offering them at a startprice of 0,99 from China I will certainly become very careful

11th May 2007, 01:50 PM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	It was relisted once, the first listing did not allow bids from outside USA. Definately not a Langgai Tinggang. As per Ben's rules also not a Jimpul. But still, nice blade, nice hilt. Didn't this come from an ebay auction in the USA last month ?

11th May 2007, 04:42 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	VVV My point was that the sword on ebay was recently made so in my opinion it is a copy possibly for sale to the locals. I can't see spending that much money for a recent blade no matter how rare the style. How does one know if a local shop in that area just copied it from a photo in a book? Lew

11th May 2007, 05:18 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Quoting Michael: "... I think that the parang on the link above is more related to this kind of non-documented Iban sword than the one on Artzi's site? And the hilt form looks more like the rare kind shown in Iban Art pict.135 or Coppens page 73 (far right)." Another one of my pseudophilosophical ramblings: Why do we always try to pigeonhole every weapon into some predefined niche? "This one is a Niabor, this one is a Jimpul, and that one is undefined or undocumented" Do not get me wrong: it is important to know a correct name for many reasons, but these swords were made by hand, by illiterate village smiths who never belonged to trade guilds, had no manuals, no strict standards and no ethnographers standing behind their backs and ordering them to increase the angle just a bit to conform to Pic. X on Page Y in book Z. Of course, every one of them had just a gestalt of what a mandau ( or anyrhing else) should look and just spiced it up from time to time with a crenellation here, a curlicue there and a recurve blade if he had a pariculatly good drink last evening. The more we look at the swords, the more variability we find even within the same class. Not a miracle: it is an art first and foremost, and real art lets imagination run wild. I just wonder what real head-hunting Dyaks from the 19th century would call this sword. Probably just "A Sword".